Topic: Reaction? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-02-01 09:48 PM BDBLcommish Okay, I've been waiting anxiously for over two weeks to hear reaction on the Stamford/Manchester trade. Please don't disappoint me. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-02-01 10:03 PM FireAnt Okay I must of been a sleep or something but I missed that trade. What exactly took place?? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-02-01 10:09 PM FireAnt Never mind - didn't realize the website had been updated. Dempster for Chipper Jones?? Christmas sure came early this year. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:05 AM SeaCats I remember last season after the big trade involving Sosa and Bagwell, Mike posted some dialogue from that trade between Shark and himself. Any hopes for that on this trade? I'm beginning to wonder about that Jedi mind trick. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:38 AM STMZoots Against my better judgment, I will give 5 seconds of my perspective. I think the trade made sense from my perspective as I needed some offense and Chipper can be used at 3B or LF. Jim is the best person to answer about his thinking, but from what I gathered it is pretty simple. Jones is $8.0M this coming season, $9.5M the following year and $10.0M in 2004, 2005 and 2006 -- an aggressive contract. Jim wanted to free up salary for next season's bumper crop of 2003 FA's and wanted to get a solid, cheap starter in return. Dempster will certainly be better than, let's say, Pedro Astacio at $3.0M next season (I saw an article on ESPN.com I think listing Astacio as one of the 5 WORST SP's in the NL last year -- but I digress). So Jim gets a #3/#4 starter with 211 IP and moves a difficult contract. Again, you have to talk to Jim for the details, but this is what I gathered. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:39 AM fmimes The fix is in. In October I offered Manchester a voodoo doll of Bob Davie, a Wisconsin brewed jug of brandy, an NSync bobblehead, and A.J. Burnett. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:41 AM BDBLcommish Well, I actually did get to see the entire exchange, since it was forwarded to me as part of the trade announcement. Believe it or not, it went something like this: PAUL: "Say, Jim, I hear you've got Chipper Jones on the block. I'd kind of like to have him." JIM: "Okay, how about Jones for Ryan Dempster?" PAUL: "Okay, done deal. Thanks." I got the official explanation from the Manchester P.R. department yesterday. According to Irish Rebels spokesperson Iggy M. Clueless, the Rebels needed to "cut some salary." So obviously, the only way to do that was by trading one of the league's top hitters to the three-time defendings champions in exchange for a useless one-year rental pitcher. (Sorry, Jim, but this is the price you pay for dealing with the Ev-, er, I mean, the Zoots.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:45 AM STMZoots Yes, so as you can plainly see, I tortured him, threatened to go public with the naked pictures my PI took of him last season at the BDBL get-together and paid him a large sum of money (in unmarked bills) to get this deal done. Actually, as I said to Jim at the conclusion of this very rapid negotiation..."and they say two lawyers can't get things done quickly." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:48 AM fmimes Instant classic. A new poll question: Which pitcher will have a better BDBL ERA in 2002? Petey A. or Ryan D. Any BDBL handicappers want to set the money line on this one? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:52 AM SeaCats Btw, my post was tongue and cheek. Nice trade Paul, I think it goes without saying that you were the big winner on this one. Also, testing my new logo. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:58 AM BDBLcommish I love it, attacking poor Petey Astacio once again. You'll all be thrilled to know that I felt so awful about burdening the poor Mimes with his hefty contract that I took him back. So he's now my "problem", not Madison's. As for this charge about Astacio being the worst pitcher in baseball, here's a little comparison (the first of its kind on this message board!): Pitcher A: 9.3 H/9, .90 HR/9, 4.8 BB/9, 7.3 K/9, .269/.362/.428, 4.94 ERA Pitcher B: 9.6 H/9, 1.2 HR/9, 2.9 BB/9, 7.6 K/9, .276/.341/.461, 5.09 ERA Pretty similar, no? Maybe a slight edge to Pitcher B because of the drastically fewer walks and lower OBP. But did I mention that Pitcher A pitches half his games in one of the best pitcher's parks in the National League? Or that Pitcher B pitches in the worst pitcher's park (by FAR) in baseball history? Did I also mention that Pitcher A is a one-year rental, who has a $2.5m contract in 2002? Or that Pitcher B has two years remaining at $3m and $4m? Seems to me that a team would be better off owning Pitcher B rather than Pitcher A, no? Who wrote that ESPN.com piece? Harold Reynolds? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 02:45 PM R˙che After seeing the early trades, I have to wonder how big a haul Pedro would bring me...maybe I could rebuild my entire offense?! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 02:54 PM novamustangs DJ, I'll give you my whole team (except Neifi Perez) and a six pack of Dr.Pepper .... maybe I'll throw in a couple of bags of chips for a #2 farm pick. Man, guess these are the last few month we can joke about trading food for draft picks.....so sad --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 03:06 PM R˙che Let the offering of entire rosters begin! His value has been set! All future offers can hold off on the Dr. Pepper, though gallons of Hawaiian Punch are welcome! If you can get me a line on a lifetime supply of Grandma Scherers Premium Select Potato Chips, you can have my #2 farm picks forever! ============================================================================================= Topic: Is it time to invoke Rule 9.3? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 07:26 PM BDBLcommish I got an e-mail today from an unnamed owner who suggested that the Stamford/Manchester trade falls under the guidelines of reversal under Rule 9.3 (the "best interests of the game" clause.) I thought I'd throw it out here to get some discussion going about it. I won't necessarily do anything as a result of it, but I figured it would entertaining as hell. Here is the heart of the Plantiff's case: -- For qualified year-to-date pitchers (for the ERA title), Dempster ranks 70th out of 84 for ERA, 79th out of 84 in OBP and 49th in slugging percentage. -- For qualified year-to-date hitters, Chipper Jones is 1st in Avg, 2nd in SLG and 1st in OBP for all 3rd basemen AND 8th in OBP, 12th in SLG and 10th in AVG for all hitters. -- Prior precedent has been already set (in the landmark Lankford vs. BDBL case of 1999), where a trade was reversed in the best interests of the league. So I ask you, the jury, what say you? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 07:32 PM Mike S./Rocks Lame! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 08:25 PM SeaCats "Bad trades are a part of baseball," Annie Savoy said it, and the Kansas City Royals practice it. I mean who could forget Neifi Perez for Jermaine Dye. I wish you (Mike) had never negated the Lankford trade, but also remember this was something that happened in the league's infancy...people were questioning Mike's integrity, and to be honest I thought the whole thing was sickening. I don't think a single person that bitched about that trade is with us anymore. I can think of plenty of reasons why a trade would be deemed "not in the best interests of the league". They all involve one or both parties doing something devious and most likely just being a jerk. Even in Mike's case, the question was whether Mike was abusing his power as commissioner... a bad case it was, but that really was the question. I seriously don't think Paul and Jim have any conspiracy going here, I don't think Jim is planning on dumping a bunch of players and then jumping ship, and as much as Mike will hate to hear it... I don't think Paul invoked any Black Magic or Jedi mind-tricks . At the very worst, one might argue that there was bad judgement involved, but then again aren't each of us able to make these kinds of decisions for our teams better than anybody else? Personally, I don't think bad judgement should ever be a criteria for negating a trade. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 08:55 PM LawDogs I'm the commissioner of a rotiserie basball league and a fantasy football league and I only feel that a trade can be vetoed by the commish only if the trade is not in the best interest of the league. Although this trade isn't an even trade, I'm sure each has their reasons for making it. Remember we deal with a salary cap and contracts. Because of this, there are a lot of trades that are made that aren't equal. Sure wish I would of gotten an offer to Jim first. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 08:59 PM NY Knights I don't understand this trade at all. However, I will say that this is not the first trade I have questioned to myself. I think this is mostly because I am still new to the BDBL and its contract/salary structure. I am still trying to condition my mind to think differently from my fantasy league mentality. I literally laugh if I'm offered Dempster for Chipper in a fantasy league ...contract or no contract. FYI, if anyone ever has a Top 5 player at any position, PLEASE send me an email (my new email address is NYKnights01@aol.com) so I can at least attempt to make an offer. It sucks to watch Chipper move to the Champs for a medicore pitcher in his walk year. I haven't compared Kevin Jarvis'(100k; option year) numbers to Dempster but you can bet your ass I would have made him available for the premier 3B in the league. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:32 PM NY Knights Okay, I did the Dempster/Jarvis comparison because it was driving me nuts and now I'm upset. Chipper should be playing in NY next year based on these numbers: Dempster $2.5m - FA year 211ip, 4.94era, .823ops vs LHP & .761ops vs RHP Jarvis $100k - option year 193ip, 4.79era, .815ops vs LHP & .768ops vs RHP Am I wrong? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 09:38 PM BDBLcommish Chris, welcome to our nightmare! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 10:36 PM Mike S./Rocks What will the uproar over the soon-to-be-announced Vlad Guerrero trade be? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-03-01 11:53 PM BDBLcommish Guerrero for Piniero, Cordero and Colby Lewis...very interesting... One of the ways I like to judge a trade is whether or not it could ever happen in reality. If Guerrero were a free agent for Montreal next year, I'd like to think they'd get better prospects for him, but after seeing what they got for Rondell White, I guess anything is possible. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 08:56 AM STMZoots Mike Stein summed it up well -- "Lame." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 09:38 AM Shark I was think of that Guerrero trade and I can see why it is hard to deal a player with his salary and contract length (same as with Bagwell). If you have a lot of money available why bother trading for Guerrero or Bagwell (both FAs after this year) when you can just overpay in the draft for a few similar (though not as good) hitters? Why give up 2-3 very good players. Keep those good players and overpay for a very good player(s). In the end you make out more. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 09:41 AM Shark Also, remember the out-cry when I traded Mussina and Myers to Salem for Vazquez. Well that trade looks good now doesn't it. Basically, you really can't judge some of these trades untill the player(s) develop or not. Vazquez had a breakout season, I made out. Hopefully Lowell and Lowe will have breakout seasons next year so that Nevin trade can be put to rest. What about Sosa/Bagwell for Olerud, Salmon and 2 draft picks. My GOD I got killed for that trade. Well the 2 picks turned into Posada and Ichiro (farm draft). Salmon had an MVP season for me (and Paul). Bagwell was just traded for Astacio --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 10:32 AM Ridgebacks Not to beat a dead horse but I think a lot of these trades can be traced back to the way we do our free agent draft. There is no incentive for a team to be average or just decent. They won't make the playoffs and they'll end up with a poor draft position. Because we have the benefit of hindsight (we KNOW what kind of season a guy had), our free agent draft is very important. If you want to eliminate these trades, you need to create an incentive for each team to be as competitive as possible every year. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 10:49 AM BDBLcommish I say a random draft order for each salary tier, conducted the day after Cutdown Day, would solve this problem. But that rule proposal was shot down last year. The only other options would be an auction type of free agent system for the top players, but I really don't know how that can be done. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 10:53 AM STMZoots But then how do you allow the worst teams to become better? That's the catch and I don't see an easy answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 11:11 AM Ridgebacks I think bidding on the free agents is do-able using the board. Maybe we just bid on the top 20 free agents (we could vote, it's usually pretty obvious) and do a live draft for the rest. Have a draft order and allow a team to "put a player on the block". Then let teams bid in $100,000 (or $500,000) increments. Let the bidding continue, cycling through all the teams as many times as necessary (once a team "passes", they are out for that player). The last team to bid gets the player. We'd just need to put time limits on teams. If a team is up, they get a certain number of hours to make a bid or they automatically pass. Something like 12 hours. Everyone would have to cooperate and check the board often, but it should work. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 11:47 AM Mike S./Rocks Consider this ... ... if Allentown doesn't have a good year this year, then trading for Vlad was a waste, cause after this year he has nothing to show for the trade while the Rocks do. With Bonds, Guerrero and the #1 pick, this is Allentown's shot. And keeping Vlad doesn't ensure my team is any good this year, because I have very little offense around him with who is under contract, save an overpriced Robin Ventura and Javy Lopez, who weren't very good. Now I've got about $7 mil extra in cap room, a good-looking young pitcher in Pineiro who will contribute for my team this season, a prospect pitcher who is highly regarded (and these go either way), and a serviceable fifth OF. I can keep 19 players at the cost of $34.4 mil heading into the draft, giving me lots of maneuverability. That's without trading or cutting anyone else. For example, I could keep Robin Ventura for $7 mil or cut him and eat $3.5 mil -- which means more to my team? Maybe I could even draft him back for $3 or $4 mil and call it even. And maybe I go out and draft a new $10 mil player who I can keep longer than this upcoming year. The Rocks will not stink this year! At least that's not my goal. And when I said "Lame" I meant lame as to invoking that rule! Beware the Rocks! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 12:08 PM Sphinx If we do decide to institute a bidding system for the 1st round of the free agent draft, we should have a list of the 24 top free agents (matching the # of teams in the BDBL). And we should not put this list up for a vote as the process is too subjective and we'll all have different opinions as to who the 24 should be (after the obvious ones at the top of the list). It'd be more practical to use the Elias rankings or some other group's ranking system. Also, I would suggest that once a team wins a bid and receives a player, that team is out of the bidding for the rest of the 1st round. This assures that all teams will receive a 1st round pick. For rounds 2 through whatever, we would proceed as normal by going with reverse order of record. This process assures that any team could bid on the free agent that they most desire if they have managed their salary cap well. However, the only problem with a bidding system is what do we do when the bidding reaches $10 million? If we use a bidding system, we'd almost have to remove the $10M salary cap limit to allow the bidding to go as high as possible. This may open a whole new can of worms. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 12:18 PM novamustangs Of course the institution of that "once you pick you're out of the bidding" rule means that the #24 pick in the first round goes for $100 k since there is no one left to bid against that team. I think a weighted lottery system is the way to go. All it takes is a computer program to generate the order...run it for the first round in each salary tier and the rest of the rounds are by record. Plus, since you guys voted to eliminate the trading of draft picks, the issue of not knowing what pick someone will have when trading is eliminated. This is the middle class fighting for the middle class, cause I can't get out of the middle class --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 12:23 PM STMZoots Mike, to clarify, I meant that the Rule 9.3 challenge was "lame," not your trade. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-04-01 03:15 PM Mike S./Rocks I'm with you, Paul! But who knows -- maybe my trade will end up being lame as well. Only my Magic 8-Ball knows!