Mike S./Rocks Triple-A Posted 04-13-02 04:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Fogg: 7 IP, 3 hits, 1 ER, 6 K, 1 BB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ridgebacks Double-A Posted 04-13-02 06:28 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Still sounds too much like "Boss Hog" for my liking. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-13-02 07:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I watched him pitch today for the first time and I can't tell how on earth he has any success. He doesn't throw any harder than 88, and he doesn't seem to have any particular "out pitch" (except maybe his palmball), yet somehow he hardly ever allows a hitter to get the sweet spot of his bat on the ball. He mixes speeds, locations, etc., and that seems to be enough. If he were a lefty, I'd compare him to Jamie Moyer, but I've never seen a righty pitch that way and get away with it - at least not in the big leagues. I get the feeling that if he ever shows up at the ballpark without his best control that particular day, he's going to get hammered. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-14-02 03:29 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then again, your ability to predict future success for pitchers speaks for itself. With the exception of Javy Vazquez (and, if I were being kind, Robert Person), here are a few Glander "top" calls of the past few years: 1. Darren Dreifort 2. Omar Daal 3. Steve Woodard 4. Randy Keisler 5. Pedro Astacio 6. Bruce Chen 7. Scott Elarton 8. Jeff Austin 9. Chin Hui-Tsao (albeit because of injury) need I go on? All of these, according to our beloved Commish, was the second coming of..well...whoever. The returns? Ummm. Well. Not good. And then there are the big "misses" - i.e., guys you said, in varying degrees, "sucked" or were "overrated" or you thought couldn't possibly be as good as their press clippings who are developing quite nicely (to say the least). 1. Wade Miller 2. Mark Buehrle 3. Juan Cruz 4. Roy Oswalt (hey, I'm sure Adam Johnson will make a very nice middle reliever someday) So, to those being criticized now for their trades, moves, selections etc...I just say hey, consider the source. To my good buddy Mikey...stick to the hitters buddy. You're darn good at picking those. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-14-02 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come on buddy. You keep kicking the dog, he's gonna bite eventually. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-14-02 06:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure why you'd want to put either Daal (who enjoyed his best season the year after I drafted him) or Astacio (who has been a BDBL success and is having a nice MLB season so far) in your "losers" category. Hell, a third of the pitchers you claim are losers all suffered season-ending injuries. I certainly can't predict that! I also can't explain why you'd want to put Juan "Stick Boy" Cruz in your "winners" category, either, based on one appearance. But by all means, if you're going to criticize my judgment of pitchers, now's the time to do so considering the pitching staff I'm looking at for the next few years. Should I even mention all the pitchers that you've predicted greatness for over the years? Sure, why not. It'll be fun. Here goes: Gil Meche (injured, but what's good for the Glander is good for the goose), John Halama, Wascar Serrano, the Immortal Kip Wells, Chris Nageotte, Jesus Sanchez, Matt Ginter, Jose Rosado, Rolando Arrojo, Alex Graman, B.J. Ryan, Ryan Vogelsong, Chad Bradford, Onan Masaoka, John Riedling...need I go on?? Predicting pitching is the toughest thing to do in all of fantasy baseball. Considering that, I think I've done pretty well in that department - especially in comparison to you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-14-02 08:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Add one more to that list. Danny Wright: 2 IP, 5 H, 5 ER, 3 BB, 1 K, 5.86 ERA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 08:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Gil Meche (injured, but what's good for the Glander is good for the goose), John Halama, Wascar Serrano, the Immortal Kip Wells, Chris Nageotte, Jesus Sanchez, Matt Ginter, Jose Rosado, Rolando Arrojo, Alex Graman, B.J. Ryan, Ryan Vogelsong, Chad Bradford, Onan Masaoka, John Riedling] First, the difference is that MAYBE with the exception of Kip Wells, I NEVER claimed any of these guys was the next "big thing." Further, Kip Wells will still develop into a very good 3rd starter. Don't see that happening with Steve Woodard (the "next Greg Maddux" I seem to remember you calling him), Omar Daal (a freakin' bullpen mop up guy they whose salary the Dodgers can't dump), Keisler (isn't he in Japan now?), Chen (a bullpen guy IN MONTREAL NO LESS) etc. etc. Second, most of these guys you mention for me were $100k fliers (Halama, Sanchez, BJ Ryan, Vogelsong, Bradford, Riedling) who had varying degrees of success and, in the case of Bradford and Riedling, at an absolute minimum, continue to have very good success thank you very much. Third, Nageotte certainly, and Graman, Ginter and Vogelsong to a lesser extent, remain fully in the plans of their respective ballclubs and are all still quite young and developing. Nageotte is the 1st or 2nd best pitching prospect in a very strong Seattle farm system (Soriano has some SERIOUS questions after serious arm injury and, Little Unit...well, TWO serious arm injuries) Fourth, if you can't pick on injured guys, you sure have your fair share in that list (Vogelsong, Meche and Rosado). Fifth, Arrojo won me a championship and, from day one, was viewed by me as a 1-2 year guy. I got one year AND a championship. Funny how my "suck ass" guys continue to show up on your roster..huh? (Arrojo and Cameron) Sixth, nice try, but, like I said, go back to picking hitters. I conceded that you are quite good at that (with some obvious exceptions ... but that's for a different post. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 08:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh yeah, Danny Wright? Two good starts and one bad start at age 24 in the ML's and you are going to put him on the scrap heap? Just goes to show you know NOTHING about pitching. Thanks for proving my point. He is one of the more exciting young arms in the AL thank you very much (a guy you told me repeatedly you loved last season when he was tearing up AA). Why don't you and Rick Ankiel have a drink and think about your abilities to pick young pitchers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 08:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh yeah. Before I forget. Not to go and ruin any trade offers you might have on the table, but Spooneybarger (Majors) and Chiasson (minors) have REALLY been tearing it up as well. Right? Sorry if I blew your cover as you try to package them as "two great young arms" to Marlboro in exchange for Vazquez. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 08:52 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh gosh. Look at that. Clint Nageotte (remember that guy you said sucked), pitching in High A ball for San Bernardino, bounced back from his one subpar outing...and how: C.Nageotte 5.0ip 2h 1er 1bb 9k How old is this kid? The same kid that went: 152.1 141 50bb 187k's in low A last year... All of 21. Like I said buddy. I have been minding my own business. Trying to stay out of the debates. Trying to be less argumentative with you. Then, out of no where, you have to come and kick me in the ribs. Make fun of my guys. Give lame-ass, transparent "scouting reports" under the guise of being "objective." I know you are trying to "spark" the board a bit, but do me a favor and leave me out of it. I am just trying to piece together my lame ass squad this year to keep up with the Madison and Bear Country's of the world. I'm coming off a rough weekend of having my butt handed to me by Los Altos. Then I have to read you bashing my trades. I guess I should be used to it...but, like I said, "why you gotta kick the sleeping dog?" [Edited by STMZoots] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bud Selig Rookie Posted 04-15-02 10:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Gammons Article analysing the Dodgers pitching..... "For me, Eric Gagne is Robb Nen," says one NL scout. "His stuff is that good.". 4 for 4 in save situations and seems to have found his niche as a closer. "There is no comparison between his stuff this season and last," says the NL scout. "He's in the mid-90s and touches 98. His breaking ball is vastly improved, and he's got a great split. His stuff is as good as Nen's. That's saying something." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 11:02 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Four straight posts by Stamford in a span of about eight hours?? Hey, Paul - GET A LIFE!! I don't think I can possibly comment on ALL the ridiculous things you said, but for the sake of keeping this entertaining thread alive, let me just hit a couple of points. "First, the difference is that MAYBE with the exception of Kip Wells, I NEVER claimed any of these guys was the next "big thing."" When on earth did I claim that Daal, Keisler, Elarton or Austin was "the next big thing??" True, I had high hopes for Darren Dreifort, but that only puts me in the same company as thousands of Major League scouts, coaches, managers and executives. I thought Chen was due for a breakout year last year, but it didn't happen. I still hold out hope that it will (if only he gets the opportunity to get 30 starts one year.) The fact that you don't recognize that Astacio has been a front-line ace in not only MLB but the BDBL over the past five years or so only tells me that it is YOU who "knows NOTHING about pitching." In fact, that fact alone speaks volumes about your ability to recognize talent. Tsao lost an entire season to injury, but I certainly don't believe he's washed up. His timetable has just been pushed back a year, that's all. That pretty much covers your list. "Don't see that happening with Steve Woodard (the "next Greg Maddux" I seem to remember you calling him.)" I didn't say that Woodard was the "next Greg Maddux." I said that Woodard gets people out in the same way that Maddux does: by hitting corners, by changing speeds and movement, by not walking a lot of people, by getting hitters to miss the sweet spot of their bats. Hmm...come to think of it, Steve Woodard's scouting report sure does sound like another scouting report I gave recently here on the board. In fact, the only difference between Woodard and Fogg is that Woodard had demonstrated an ability to get Major League hitters out at a young age by the time I acquired him. Fogg has done nothing throughout his career to predict his two-game success this year. "Omar Daal (a freakin' bullpen mop up guy they whose salary the Dodgers can't dump)" Again, when did I predict greatness for Daal? I drafted him at $5m in our Inaugural Draft based on his outstanding 1998 MLB numbers and my belief that he'd be worth $5m in the 2000 BDBL season. I was certainly right about that. I can't be held accountable because he was given a long-term deal by his current GM, can I?? "Keisler (isn't he in Japan now?)" Keisler was a $100k flier in last year's draft. And if I remember correctly, at the time you said that was a great pick-up and that Keisler might be a bargain this year. You took me to task for including your $100k fliers. So what's it going to be? Should we include these guys or not?? "Fourth, if you can't pick on injured guys, you sure have your fair share in that list (Vogelsong, Meche and Rosado)." Again, what's it going to be?? If you can't pick on injured guys, then that excludes a third of your list (Elarton, Tsao and Dreifort.) Make up your mind, Counselor! "Fifth, Arrojo won me a championship and, from day one, was viewed by me as a 1-2 year guy. I got one year AND a championship. Funny how my "suck ass" guys continue to show up on your roster..huh? (Arrojo and Cameron)" No, I remember you touting Arrojo as "the next big thing" when you drafted him. He was much more than a "1-2 year guy" to you. Yes, he's on my roster three years later. The difference is that I view him as a middle relief mop-up man, and I'm not paying him the big bucks you were. "Oh yeah, Danny Wright? Two good starts and one bad start at age 24 in the ML's and you are going to put him on the scrap heap?" Let's see...79.2 IP, 87 H, 12 HR, 42 BB, 40 K, 5.31 ERA. I'd say nearly 80 innings is a decent sample size, right? I mean, you're willing to send Adam Johnson to the scrap heap after three MLB starts, so why not? "Why don't you and Rick Ankiel have a drink and think about your abilities to pick young pitchers." Oh, sure. Pick on the mentally-handicapped. Nice job. "Not to go and ruin any trade offers you might have on the table, but Spooneybarger (Majors) and Chiasson (minors) have REALLY been tearing it up as well." First of all, The Spoon Man isn't going anywhere, and I'm reluctant to trade a fellow ECSU alumni (Chiasson), so I wouldn't count on either moving anywhere. Secondly, Spoon Man has pitched exactly 6 1/3 innings this year. Am I to believe that 6.1 innings is a large enough sample size for you but 79.2 innings isn't?? Thirdly, I remember you crying like a little girl when I "stole" both of those guys, so I don't want to hear any B.S. about how I'm the only one who foresees greatness for those two. "Roy Oswalt (hey, I'm sure Adam Johnson will make a very nice middle reliever someday)" That's a low blow. You know the only reason I chose Johnson over Oswalt is because you made me give you my word of honor that I wouldn't take Oswalt. I'm a man of my word, Counselor. Perhaps little things like honor aren't part of the Zoots handbook, but it is first and foremost in the Salem Cowtippers code of conduct. "Like I said buddy. I have been minding my own business. Trying to stay out of the debates. Trying to be less argumentative with you. Then, out of no where, you have to come and kick me in the ribs." How on earth do you figure that?? I was minding my own business, posted one completely unbiased scouting report on a player you don't even own and all of a sudden I'm attacked out of left field and told I "know NOTHING about pitching." Where did this attack come from? What provoked it? Who knows? I'm just an innocent victim in all of this. P.S. - I think it's a REALLY disturbing precedent that someone is now using an alias on this board. (Though I have to thank Mr. Selig for posting that one.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 11:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm...you edited your post about Nageotte being the best pitching prospect on the Mariners staff...I wonder why... I wonder if Rafael Soriano's outstanding performance yesterday had anything to do with it. In case you're keeping track of this sort of thing, Soriano has now allowed 15 hits and 7 walks in 13.2 innings, with 17 strikeouts. Oh yeah, he's also pitching in the toughest pitcher's league in all of minor league baseball (the Texas League), which is in Double-A (unlike Nageoeoaeoeata.) Smooth move, Counselor, but I caught you on that one. [Edited by BDBLcommish] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 12:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are going to have a little math lesson now...so pay attention. Rafael Soriano - DOB = 12/19/79 (age = 22, will be 23 in Dec). Clint Nageotte - DOB = 10/25/80 (age = 21, will be 22 in Oct). Is this another case of the "new math?" I'm having trouble figuring out how Soriano is "younger." I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you either "missed" this fact, ran out of fingers and toes to count on or that Soriano got YOUNGER during this offseason of multiple age changes for players. PLUS Soriano has already had arm trouble. 2001 -- shut down with shoulder trouble. 2000 -- elbow tendinitis in 2000. Kind of "checkered" injury history...no? PLUS When Soriano was in Low A Wisconsin (in 2000, at age 20), here were his numbers: 122.1ip 97h 50bb 90k's 2.87era Nageotte's numbers, at age 20, at Low A Wisconsin: 152.1ip 141h 50bb 187k's 3.13era Hmmmmm. 50/90 bb/k ratio vs. 50/187? I think I'll take Nageotte. Are you done embarassing yourself? Or shall I continue? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 12:56 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT??? When did I ever say that Rafael Soriano is younger than Chris Nageoeotta?? You must be making this stuff up! Hee hee hee... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 01:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Apology accepted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 01:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, I was mocked for getting Colby Lewis when I traded Vladimir Guerrero away. Guess what: Colby Lewis: 6 IP, 6/4 K/BB ratio, 7 hits, 3.00 ERA The great Tim Spooneybarger: 6.1 IP, 6 hits, 4/4 K/BB ratio, 5.68 ERA Maybe you should respect COLBY LEWIS and the power of the Cleveland Rocks farm a bit more! Just wait til FREDDY SANCHEZ z is starting at 2B for Boston sometime next year. And JORGE JULIO is already Baltimore's closer. And ANDY VANHEKKEN is in the Tigers rotation by the end of the year (what, ONLY 13 Ks and no BBs in 9.0 IPs so far this season?). And JJ JOHNSON is starting in the Cubs OF in a couple years. And EDWARDS GUZMAN becomes the Giants starting catcher when Benito Santiago dies of old age. (So what, he's not on my farm, close enough, he's only 25.) Just think if I DID know who they were before I drafted them. Tell you, what: write down the names Colby Lewis, Andy VanHekken, and Jorge Julio. Over the next two years, you tell me what group of three young pitchers on a current BDBL roster has more major league success. They have to be no more than rookies right now. (Too bad I traded Pineiro and Halladay -- two more guys I didn't know who they were before I traded/picked them up.) I'll guarantee you one thing about all these guys -- they will be performing their feats of greatness for the ROCKS, not someone else. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 02:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only three rookie pitchers I have are Spoon Man, Chia Pet and Jeff "Take Off, You Hoser" Francis. I'll put those three against your trio of Colby, VanHalen, and Julio Jorge over the next two years. What do I get if I win? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 02:45 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come on, who else wants in on this? Which of your three rookie-or-less pitchers will have the most major league success in the next two years (counting this year). Entrants so far: ROCKS -------- Jorge Julio Colby Lewis Andy VanHekken STEERS -------- Tim Spooneybarger Scott Chiasson Jeff Francis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- R˙che High-A Posted 04-15-02 03:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I only have a few possibilities right now, everyone else isn't close enough yet to make an impact in that time period, but here's two from me. Carlos Hernandez and Ben Howard Give me some time though, and maybe I'll add another one through trade. Anyone looking to make some deals? It may be time to shake things up in Akron! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 03:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, DJ, I advise you to get rid of all your top free agent players and play for next year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FireAnt Double-A Posted 04-15-02 03:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I said it once I will say it again, Who wants Hampton?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 03:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we are talking success in the next two years (defined as 2002 and 2003 I am guessing), I'll take Chicago in a landslide over any team -- Mark Prior and Josh Beckett. Ummm....game over. That said, I will also take my boys -- not to compete with Prior/Beckett of course, but to compete with the sorry toads put up by the Cowtippers: Juan Cruz and Danny Wright (versus Chiasson, Spooneybarger and Jeff Francis (who will still be in the minors in 2003). You can also throw in Kenny Baugh on my end...just for kicks. You're right...this is fun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 03:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It'll be fun watching Danny Wright drag down Cruz's numbers. Can I put Jeff Francis' big league career against Danny Wright's? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 03:33 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, if by "Jeff Francis" you mean the soft-throwing 88-90 mph throwing lefthander from NoWhere, Canada versus the Jeff Francis who lives in that scary little pea-brain of yours who throws mid-90's and has dominated major competition throughout his college years...we'll call that second guy "Pretend Jeff Francis" and he can play on this year's Mike Glander Pretend All-Star team with Rick Ankiel and Steve Woodard...even Adam Johnson if he ever gets over his demotion and stops tearing up assignment papers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 03:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damn...I forgot one to add to the list of "Failed Stamford Pitching Stars." Anyone heard from Nate Corholio lately? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 03:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes I have. He is in AAA in between starts in the major leagues. You see, as a 5th starter in the major in April, because of days off, you often skip your 5th starter early on for a couple of turns. Rather than have him sit the bench...or pitch him in relief...the Tigers wisely decided to let him get his work in AAA. Anytime I can help explain things to you...you only need to ask. I am happy to help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 03:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've got a better idea. Let's put all the pitching prospects I've sacrificed over the past couple of years and put them up against all of Stamford's. Now THAT would be a fun comparison. Here's a list to track for future reference: Salem: Adam Johnson, Dewon Brazelton, Bobby Brownlie, Brandon Claussen, Chin-Hui Tsao, Grant Roberts and Rafael Soriano Stamford: Nate Cornholio, Kip Wells, Wascar Serrano, Matt Ginter, Onan Masaoka and Alex Graman Let the games begin!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 04:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So tell us, how is Mr. Cornholio doing so far this year? Don't be shy. What can we expect from this future workhorse-like stud? From what I understood, he's not supposed to be a #5 pitcher. So will he be the ace of the vaunted Detroit Tigers pitching staff next year? The year after that? Let's hear some predictions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 04:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the point of that list? I just never understand the point of your points. The only guy who has reached the majors on your list is Adam Johnson (briefly and horribly I might add). Yet you want to criticize guys like Cornejo and Kip Wells who may have been rushed...but at least have pitched in the majors. Until your guys GET to the majors and put up actual stats, what is the point of this discussion? If the point is that you have traded guys with nice names at the time you traded them -- fine. Point taken. If the point is that we have both done ok at getting rental players for prospects -- fine. However, if the point you are trying to make is that your list is BETTER than my list, its a worthless argument until your guys actually hit the majors and put up stats. Its easy for you to argue right now because your guys don't have any actual STATS for us to compare...except for Johnson who sucked BIG time. So what the hell is your point? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 04:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for Nate Cornejo... First, see the previous post. As I said, your guys are ALL potential at this point (some pretty low on that scale I might add). They don't have MLB stats, so you have NOTHING to argue about. Second, Cornejo SHOULD have been kept in AA last season, hit AAA this year and gotten a September call-up. Instead, they rushed him and he has had a setback. The guy had a 2.68 era in AA last year and a 2.12 era in AAA last year before he got called up. How about your guys? Newsflash: It is tough to pitch in the majors... especially when you are young and inexperienced. You talk about small sample sizes with Adam Johnson and criticize me for discussing his performance in AAA and the majors last year...then you do the same thing with Cornejo's 42 inning ML performance last year and his 5 or so innings this year. Are you serious? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 04:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry...forgot about Grant Roberts. A reliever...24 years old...4.52 era in AAA in 2001. 26 ok innings for the Mets in relief. Add that to Adam Johnson in the majors (since that appears to be ok to point out now): 25ip 32h 6hr 13bb 17k Wow, that's damn impressive buddy. I can see why you consider him to have done nothing to damage his "top prospect" label. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 04:28 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe Nate will take the Paul Wilson route to the majors and start to peak at the ripe old age of 29...or maybe he will be like John Thomson -- another member of your purported "star" brigade and start to put together respectable numbers at age 28. Who knows. I guess time will tell buddy and I am not going to go and spout a bunch of crap about him to make a silly point to win a silly argument. What's the point? Its all conjecture. I'll let the chips fall where they may. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 04:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As Mike Oshan would say, "woulda, coulda, shoulda." You asked, "What is the point of that list?" I'm sorry - maybe you haven't been following along. I just assumed that since you were commenting on this thread you had actually read it. I'll try to summarize for you, and I'll type slowly so you can follow along. You see, what we're doing here is speculating on future performance. Over the last couple of posts, the fellas and I have decided to put our reputations on the line by putting our top prospects up against other groups of prospects, then following along with their careers over the next few years to see which group of players perform better in the Major Leagues. I thought it would be fun to put my list of traded pitchers against yours. Now, it seems as though you'd rather make excuses as to why your traded pitchers all suck big donkey dongs rather than play along. That's okay. You really don't need to participate. I'll be watching these guys myself over the next few years, and will let you know how they all do. If - as you say - I know "NOTHING" about pitching, then my guys should all perform far more poorly than your guys...right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 04:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe Nate will take the Paul Wilson route to the majors and start to peak at the ripe old age of 29...or maybe he will be like John Thomson -- another member of your purported "star" brigade and start to put together respectable numbers at age 28." Maybe. Maybe not. But there's a reason why I didn't pick up Wilson or Thomson until this year. You are quick to criticize me for trading "years away" pitching prospects, yet my guys will make more of an immediate impact on their BDBL squads than your guys. That's my whole point. You always say, "time will tell," and that's all I'm proposing. Let me know if you need me to explain this to you any further. STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 04:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you want to compare what MY prospects do at the MAJOR league level to what YOUR guys do in the minors and call that "fair" -- hey, whatever floats your boat. A typical Glander argument. Long on numbers and rhetoric...short on common sense. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 04:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, apparently you do need further explanation. I really didn't think this concept was so hard to grasp, and I'm surprised a Harvard-educated man such as yourself is having a tough time following this thread. Let me try again. This is my last time, though, so please pay attention. I will bet you that the list of pitching prospects that I have traded over the past couple of years will out-perform the list of pitching prospects that you have traded over the past couple of years - AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL - over the next two-to- three years. Now...are you willing to participate in this game, do you still "not get it", or would you rather just keep making excuses for your guys? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 04-15-02 04:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think Nate will be fine, I'm not expecting him to ever be an ace but give him a little time and I think he can become a valuable #3 starter (possibly #2). I can't really get into this contest because my two best young pitchers are already pitching in the bigs...Lawrence (who by the way is another soft-tossing righty - ala Fogg, hopefully he'll continue to pitch well) and Duckworth. Lyon and Cornejo are also there but I think both have been somewhat rushed, hopefully they're not all 'messed up' in the head after taking their knocks. Lyon at least has the fact that he was fairly successful in the bigs last year going for him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 04:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony, how dare you mess up this thread by interjecting rationality and logic?!? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 04:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This just in: add Mike Jones to the list of traded Zoots pitching prospects. Paulie - what's your ETA on Jonesey's arrival to The Show? 2008? 2009? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 04-15-02 05:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, is Paul really a Harvard grad? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:10 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure the particular relevance of the subgroup of "traded" players. If you want to ADD them to the list of prospects we CURRENTLY HOLD and those we have ever drafted (with the caveat that they had to be farm eligible when they were selected to be eligible) to get a FULL list of pitching prospects we drafted as farm players, then fine...that seems to make sense. In that case, you can add a couple of traded players you forgot for me: Josh Fogg John Riedling Mike Jones (just traded him today) And you can also add to my overall list: Mark Buehrle Kenny Baugh (if he isn't already on there) Chad Bradford (ditto) Clint Nageotte Wade Miller Gil Meche Sun Woo Kim Ryan Vogelsong BJ Ryan And to your list, we can add: Jeff Austin Wes Anderson Adam Bernero Kevin Beirne Dan Reichert Bobby Seay (did you draft him? I don't remember that) THERE, now we have a more complete list. No "cutting" it to fit our arguments. That is now a pretty complete list. Of course, if I missed a couple, feel free to jump in. Let the games begin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes Tony, I went to Law School there. Don't hold it against me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 05:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hard to believe, judging by his posts today, but yes. He was #2 in our high school class, graduated Summa Cum Laude (I think) from William and Mary, then graduated with honors from Harvard Law. As much as he likes to brag about his baseball team, he doesn't like to brag about his personal life, so I have to do it for him. Believe it or not - off the field - I'm the charter member of the "Paul Marazita Fan Club." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You and my parents (sometimes). Pretty short list on that fan club, but its good to be loved by SOMEONE. My daughter Molly thinks DaDaDa gives good hugs too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't agree with that list, no. If I knew that taking a flier on a 65th rounder like Bobby Seay would be held against me for years I never would have drafted him! Let's just make it simple and stick to the pitchers we've traded. If you want to include others, we can do that separately. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What ever became of that #1 guy? Is he like that guy Buff Johnson on that Kia commercial who is now fat and still dancing to "I Ran"? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no rational reason to limit this list to a subset of "traded" players. The point of this exercise is to compare your ability to pick farm pitchers to my ability to pick farm pitchers. Looking only at "traded" players does not address that issue at all. If you want to take off players drafted at the end of FA drafts (not farm drafts, but FA drafts) fine. I see your point. We all like to take a few "fliers" near the end. However, you have to look at these groups together to make this a meaningful exercise: 1. Current farm pitchers 2. Current players on 35 man roster who are still eligible for farm 3. Players drafted in categories (1) or (2) who were eligible for farm when taken That list should include all "traded" players. Like I said, if you want to take off the late round FA "fliers," then you can drop the appropriate guys off and I will do the same. If you want to keep some of your better ones...I don't have a problem with that either as long as I can do the same. Hey, in a weird and pathetic way...this IS fun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would also like to thank you Mikey-boy for one of the more engaging discussions on the board in months. All kidding aside, this has been fun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 05:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, jeez, Counselor, you're adding guys who were drafted for reasons that had nothing to do with our future hopes and aspirations for them! For example: John Riedling - drafted solely to strike out Jeff Bagwell Mark Buehrle - drafted because you needed a lefty middle reliever (and if you tell me you were envisioning future Cy Young seasons from him when you acquired him, you are SUCH a liar!) Wade Miller - a guy you RELEASED, which tells me you mustn't have thought that highly of him Adam Bernero - drafted solely for his 2000 MLB numbers Kevin Beirne - drafted SOLELY to be my friggin' mop-up guy! Bobby Seay - gimme a break. It was late, I was tired, it was the 67th round. I had to pick someone. Now, if you want to include Baugh, Bradford, Fogg, Nageotte, Meche, Sunny-Woo, Vogelsong, Ryan, Austin, Anderson, Reichert, Francis, Spoon Man and ChiaPet, I suppose we can do that. But it ruins my point that I trade better quality players than you do. That's why I wanted to keep them separate. If the point is to compare how well we predict pitchers, though, then that's fine. Let's go with this list. Everyone got that?? P.S. - Yes, it has been fun. The most active day on the forum in recent memory. Thanks to all involved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll agree to take Miller out. I did drop him. Your point is taken ...shouldn't have listened to your unbiased "scouting report" at the time. My mistake. As for Riedling and Buehrle -- they stay in or no deal. Riedling was NOT drafted to strike out Bagwell...that was a nice "extra." He was drafted because I read very good things about him -- kind of like you with Chiasson and Spooneyman. Another correction. Buehrle was NOT drafted solely as a LH reliever by me. He was a starter in the minors. I fully expected him to pitch in middle relief for awhile and eventually turn into a decent 4th/5th starter type. Whether or not I knew at the time that he would be a Cy Young candidate last year is really, again, irrelevant. The fact is that I used up, mid-year, one of my 10 farm spots on him. I did NOT do that because I wanted a lefty specialist. I did that because I saw more upside to him than that...albeit not the upside that eventually occurred...again, a nice "extra." Which leads me to my final point. You can also add Bunghole Kim to my list. Again, I picked him up mid-year as a farm guy (back when we only had FIVE farm guys if memory serves, but I could be wrong on that). He was an oversight on my part. My apologies. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 05:56 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know, I'm in such a generous mood, I'll even let you have the Cy Young candidate that you picked right out of your ass (that would be Buehrle.) Throw the others in, too, what the heck. So there you have it. Let the games begin (again)! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 05:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why don't you send me a copy of the complete list by e-mail on both sides. We can both take a look, add/subtract players as appropriate (always possible we missed a couple) and agree on a final list to be posted for posterity. LET THE GAMES BEGIN INDEED! BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 05:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (The other thread was getting too long, so I'm starting a new one.) I'm waiting for a program to run, so I've got some time to kill and it got me thinking...have a Zoots pitcher EVER come out of nowhere to turn in a better-than- expected performance?? All this time, Marazita's telling me that every time I predict greatness for an unheralded pitcher, he fails. Yet other than Mark Buerhle (who I'm convinced was picked up solely to be a left-handed middle reliever, and became a Cy Young contender only by pure Zoots luck), I can't think of one pitcher the Zoots have owned over the years - or one pitcher Marazita has predicted greatness for - who has actually produced. At least I have Javier Vazquez (who had a 5.00 ERA the year I traded GREG MADDUX for him) and Derek Lowe (who was a middle reliever when I drafted him, though I said for years he should be a starter) on my resume. I'm sure I'm missing a couple of names, too. If Wilson, Tomko and Thomson continue to pitch the way they have, that's two more. Then there's Petey Astacio, who is the very definition of "unheralded", who is having a nice BDBL season for me this year so far, and is having an even nicer MLB season. I'm not even including the relievers I've picked up through the years who did better than expected (such as Jeff Zimmerman and - hopefully - Gabe White.) Just wondering - which unheralded Zoots pitchers have performed better than expected throughout the years? I mean, it's easy to draft a guy like Brown, who was already established, and it's even easier to trade for guys like Johnson, Smoltz and Clemens (well, "easy" only if you have Yoda-like Jedi mind trick powers.) Just wondering. Maybe you can fill me in when you have the time. (Note: this should keep us busy through tomorrow evening!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 06:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God dude, you are wearing me out today. I think this is what we have kind of been doing all day, but I guess I will bite anyway. I mean the fact that I have had guys like Brown, Johnson etc. Guys I have drafted as young pitchers who have "made it": Mark Buehrle Wade Miller Jason Bere off the top of my head have "made it" pretty well. Certainly a group every bit the equal of Derek Lowe (reliever until this year and we'll see how he holds up in his new role) and Vazquez. Meche would have been on that list but for the injuries. He hit the majors in his early, early 20's -- pretty impressive. Further, Cruz is in the process of establishing himself this year after a very nice 40+ innings last year. Danny Wright is in the majors and, with the exception of one bad start this year, has been pitching well Guys like Astacio, Thomson, Paul Wilson have all been 28+ years old when you have drafted them...not exactly the same type of players as the Lowes, Vazzy's, Buehrle's, Millers, Bere's etc. If you want to add relievers...great. Bunghole Kim by himself tops anyone on your list to date. Bradford is establishing himself this year. I drafted Fogg for $100k last year. I took Riedling at $100k and he had a great year before he hurt himself. Again, that's off the top of my head. If you want to throw in older relievers -- again, I grabbed Sean Lowe for next to nothing at the end of a draft. To be honest, I have made my BDBL living off of late round drafting, finding nuggets among the rubble. Its how I carried bigger salaries all these years. I'm surprised you don't remember all of our conversations on this very topic. Thus, in the end, do we really need to go down this path after an exhausting day? If so, fine. I'll put together a more careful list, but, hopefully my initial list helps answer some of your questions. I am here to please. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shark Triple-A Posted 04-15-02 07:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey wasn't the commish a BIG Ryan Bradley fan - didn't he draft him? Ryan Bradley - S - New York Yankees Apr 15 Yankees released RHP Ryan Bradley. Bradley, once one of the team's top prospects, has struggled each of the last three years and was finally removed from the 40-man roster in January. A change of scenery should do him some good, but it probably won't be enough to turn his career around. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-15-02 08:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like I said, I'm only talking about pitchers who were unheralded, yet exceeded expectations. I assume that's what we've been talking about all day. With that in mind, of the nine pitchers you mentioned, I'd only put maybe three of them (Buehrle, Kim and Lowe) in that category, though I still contend that you lucked into Buehrle. And Kim was highly-regarded when you picked him up, so I'm not sure he should count, either. But like I said, I'm being generous. You cut Miller, so I think he should be disqualified. I'm sure everyone has picked up and cut a good player some time in the past four years. If Bere was a success story, I must have missed it. He had a career year last year, but was a free agent, so I don't know when you owned him. All of those other guys (Meche, Cruz, Fogg and Riedling) haven't proven a thing yet, and have had only borderline minor league success. Put it all together and I fail to see how you've been so much better at predicting pitching success than I. P.S. - Thanks for bringing that up, Sharky. What a pal. Again, like Dreifort, I was only one of thousands of scouts and MLB professionals who thought highly of Bradley. The fact that he didn't pan out is a blight on all of our records. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-16-02 07:17 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not to start this all over again...I really do need to get some work done today... but while I cut Miller, I tried to get him in the FA draft one year later (after he had about 50 or 60 ip; I think Geisel got him). Once the draft was over, I tried to trade for him -- several times. Geisel refused. As for Bere as a "success" story, I agree, he is nothing special, but when you say that guys like Paul Wilson, Bret Tomko and John Thomson may count on your end, I assumed you were lowering the bar... substantially. As Bere has had one more good season in the past 3 years then all of them combined, I assumed I could add them to my list. You can take Bere off when you remove the Parade of the Incompetents on your end. Until then, I guess he has to stay on. Sharky, thanks on the Ryan Bradley thing. I forgot about that. There was a LOT of commish hype on him. I'm sure I am missing so many others for Mikey-boy. Its just so hard to keep track of all his failed pet pitching prospects. You would need NASA's computers to keep track of them and as Billy always says "I have a life." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-16-02 09:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I still don't understand when Bere was a success story under your command. Maybe I missed it. I'll send you the final list of "Pitchers to Watch" later today if I have the time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-16-02 10:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like Vazquez, he became good AFTER he left my team, but I drafted him early on when he was "unheralded" (for him, due to career threatening injury after nice start to his career in Chicago). I don't remember when you took Vazquez, but his numbers in 1999 and 2000 were nothing to write home about: 1999: 154ip 154h 20hr 52bb 113k 5.00era 2000: 217ip 247h 24hr 61bb 196k 4.05era He became "good" AFTER you traded him...like Miller and, to a much lesser extent Bere, became "good" after I got rid of them. If you can take credit for guys who did not truly develop until you got rid of them...surely I can too...right? I mean, fair is fair. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Triple-A Posted 04-16-02 10:45 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will take credit for Jason Bere. I traded for him before the 2001 BDBL season. He was the ace of the Rocks heading into the year! Too bad it was his free agent year, because he emerged in real life in 2001, right after I traded for him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-16-02 10:58 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok Mike Stein...you can take Bere and Sharky can take Vazquez. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-16-02 11:35 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I still don't understand what the hell you're talking about! You drafted Bere in 1999 when he sucked (127.1 IP, 5.65 ERA in MLB 1998). He sucked even worse the year after that (66.2 IP, 6.08 ERA), and I'm assuming that you released him. The year after that he still sucked (169.1 IP, 5.47 ERA.) So at what point did your Nostradamus-like skills kick into high gear?!? Do you want to take credit for his 4.31 ERA last year because you drafted him four years ago??? I don't get it!! Vazquez sucked for two years in a row (6.06 ERA in 1998 and 5.00 in 1999) when I traded Greg Maddux for him, which tells me I must have saw something in him that no one else did. He proved me right the following year by lowering his ERA nearly a full run to 4.05, striking out 196 and lowering his walk rate. I turned him around for MIKE FREAKIN' MUSSINA last year, and Vazquez enjoyed the best year of his career (so far), with a 3.42 ERA and 208 K's. WHERE ON EARTH IS THE SIMILARITY BETWEEN BERE AND VAZQUEZ?!? I swear, you must be pulling my leg. You can't possibly be this foolish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-16-02 11:56 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey calm down there big fella. No need to get your panties in a knot. "The List" we discussed yesterday will eventually determine who is the better pitcher predictor. You and Javy can go and snuggle and whisper sweet nothings -- no skin off my nose. I'll take Buehrle and Miller. You take Vazquez and Lowe. The rest of the list is, shall we say, to be determined. I like my chances. I'm sure you like yours. I guess we will see. ASIDE: as for Lowe, he was a reliever until the very last year of his contract... so you will get exactly one year of starting out of him. You got 2 very good reliever years out of him and one relatively crappy one (91.2ip 103h 3.53era). If you want to call him a great "victory," ok. I can't stop you from lowering the bar. I just personally hold myself to a higher standard. I mean you grabbed him for $2M after he had almost 200ip of ML-time including 123ip in 1998. He was a useful middle reliever type for you the inaugural season with some upside which you obviously saw. However, in the end, he was a reliever for you for 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002 BDBL seasons. He will start for you in 2003 at $5M -- performance to be determined. Like I said, if you want to chalk this up to your great abilities to predict...fine. Vazzy was a nice selection. Lowe? I guess reasonable minds will differ. My two guys? I drafted Miller in the inaugural farm draft. Because farm teams were limited, I did release him. I tried to draft him back AND get him back from Geisel several times -- when he had a 5.00+ era. Geisel wisely held on to him. He has turned into one of the better RHP's in the NL. I took Buehrle during the 2000 ML season. He made 28 appearances, 3 of them starts. I looked at his AA numbers. I figured he would eventually be a starter after another year of middle relief. He wound up being a Cy Young candidate in 2001. In the end, kudos to both of us. Are we done with this silly conversation yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 04-16-02 12:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Derek Lowe: "You got 2 very good reliever years out of him and one relatively crappy one (91.2ip 103h 3.53era)." On Javier Vazquez: "I don't remember when you took Vazquez, but his numbers in ... 2000 were nothing to write home about: ...217ip 247h 24hr 61bb 196k 4.05era" On Pedro Astacio: "Look at (Astacio's) road splits for 2001: 80.1ip 77h 7hr 26bb 68k's 4.26era. Hey, if you want to call that valuable, good for you." It's amazing how you can take good, solid numbers and claim they're terrible only when it suits your needs. (By the way, when I took Lowe, he was the 310th player chosen in that draft, so if the point of this exercise is proving which one of us has been better at acquiring unheralded pitching, then Lowe certainly qualifies.) Okay, I've compiled our two lists, and rather than send them by e-mail I've decided to post them here. I figure the rest of the league can be entertained by the whole process. Here goes: Salem's list: Adam Johnson, Dewon Brazelton, Bobby Brownlie, Brandon Claussen, Chin-Hui Tsao, Grant Roberts, Rafael Soriano, Javier Vazquez, Jeff Austin, Derek Lowe, Wes Anderson, Dan Reichert, Jeff Francis, Tim Spooneybarger, Scott Chiasson, Paul Wilson and Brett Tomko. Stamford's list: Nate Cornholio, Kip Wells, Wascar Serrano, Matt Ginter, Onan Masaoka, Alex Graman, Mike Jones, Kenny Baugh, Chad Bradford, Josh Fogg, Cliff Nageotte, Gil Meche, Sun-Wu Kim, Ryan Vogelsong, B.J. Ryan, Mark Buerhle and Wade Miller. That's 18 pitchers each. If you insist on including Bung-Hole Kim, then I'll add Eric Milton on my side. They were both equally-regarded when we picked them up. By the way, it is utterly RIDICULOUS that we're including Miller here. We may as well include every pitcher that we've ever said will have a decent career at any time over the past four years. For example, I should be able to include Roy Halladay and Vicente Padilla, since I said before this season began that those two would have breakout years this year. Saying something like that, and drafting a farm guy for a couple of chapters four years ago, is just about the same thing, no? And as far as Buehrle goes, you're so full of crap I can smell it all the way from up here. You drafted him in hindsight, based on his 2000 MLB numbers - just like I did with Jeff Zimmerman and countless other teams have done through the years. If you were predicting more from Buehrle than being a lefty middle reliever for the 2001 Zoots, you never mentioned a word to me about it. But if you insist that you foresaw Cy Young awards in Buehrle's future, then I guess I have no choice but to believe you. Now, the rules of the game: at the end of the year, we simply tally the ERA for each list. Whoever has the lower ERA wins. Then we do the same thing at the end of 2003 and 2004 (hell, we could keep going forever as long as you're still up to it.) And now...let the games begin. STMZoots Triple-A Posted 04-16-02 01:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I still don't see the purpose of putting established major leaguers on the list. If we go there, EVERYONE is fair game. The suggestion that Vazquez, Lowe, Milton etc. should be considered with guys like Brazelton, Brownlie, Cruz, Buehrle is just plain silly. Accordingly, I personally believe the rules should be as I set them out in the other thread. Here are the eligible players: 1. Current farm pitchers 2. Current players on 35 man roster who are still eligible for farm 3. Players drafted in categories (1) or (2) who were eligible for farm when taken Under those rules, which actually get to the ability to predict future success for young, unestablished players, the lists would be: Salem's list (15): Adam Johnson, Dewon Brazelton, Bobby Brownlie, Brandon Claussen, Chin-Hui Tsao, Grant Roberts, Rafael Soriano, Jeff Austin, Wes Anderson, Dan Reichert, Jeff Francis, Tim Spooneybarger, Scott Chiasson, Paul Wilson and Ryan Bradley (thx. Sharky) Stamford's list (19): Mark Buehrle, Juan Cruz (I'm sure not inlcuding him was an oversight, right?), Bunghole Kim (see below), John Riedling (see Cruz), Dan Wright (see Cruz), Nate Cornejo, Kip Wells, Wascar Serrano, Matt Ginter, Alex Graman, Mike Jones, Kenny Baugh, Chad Bradford, Josh Fogg, Cliff Nageotte, Gil Meche, Sun-Wu Kim, Ryan Vogelsong and B.J. Ryan (and no, you can't add Eric Milton, numbnut -- he had 170+ip in 1998 and 200+ip in 1999 -- he was established to say the least. Bung Kim, on the other hand, hit the majors in 1999 with 27 ip. Hardly established. You are not actually trying to compare them based on who was "more highly thought of" are you? So, if someone is a great farm prospect, with no major league experience, that is the same as someone who has already pitched 100-200ip in the majors? Come on buddy. Be serious here. Further, if you can drop the Adam Bernero's of the world, I can certainly drop Onan Masaoko who was drafted as a lefty specialist. We only got into a discussion of Masaoko when you complained about me trading him. I neve said he was a great prospect. I said he had a very nice arm for a lefty -- in defending myself. Nice try again. In fact, if we are allowed to dump $100K "fliers," then Vogelsong should probably come off too. What's good for the goose is good for the Glander...right? Further, ERA is a pretty simplistic measure by itself. What do we do with the guys who never make it to the majors? Is there not value to predicting that someone is a ML player...even if they become only an average one? Perhaps we could look at ERA AND how many guys pitched 25+ IP's in majors (or some other random number). The point is that if you produce ONE great major leaguer, but have 15 guys who never make it...is it fair to compare your ONE guy against the other guys team of 10 guys...some who turned out to be "average" major leaguers? I think not. Further, I traditionally draft more pitchers. You don't like to draft young pitchers. You say they are too difficult to predict and therefore prefer hitters. Thus, again, I am punished for taking more chances on very young pitchers. That's fine. We just have different styles. However, it does make the comparison difficult since I, by the nature of my style, take MANY more chances with really young pitchers...you take some chances with already established ML pitchers who you feel have upside and already developed college guys. I guess there is no way to really address this issue other than to take off your list the already-established guys... which has been done above. Maybe we can whittle the list down to 15 each to even it out. I don't know. The purpose here is to look at the true "prospect" type guys and who better predicts them...NOT guys with 100-200 ML innings under their belts when we jump in and say "Hey, this guy could do more eventually." God, how did I know you would turn this into "work."