bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 08:53 am Post subject: Ridgebacks make their first trade -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allentown sent Paul LoDuca, Mark Hendrickson, Aaron Rowand and Guillermo Quiroz to Atlanta for Sidney Ponson and Jayson Nix. Press release to follow. Back to top bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 09:26 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm curious to discover Gene's reasoning behind this deal. I just can't figure out why he'd want any of the players he got in this trade. Of the four of them, the only one I'd want on my roster is Quiroz, and he's a good glove/bad bat sort of guy. If I had LoDuca, Rowand or Hendrickson on my roster, I think I'd just release them. They're not even worth a roster spot, IMHO. Back to top FireAnts Major League Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 1071 Location: McDonough, GA Posted: 02 Dec 2003 10:58 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since I may not get around to writing about a 'fancy' press release and since I apparently need to justify this trade - I will just comment here. Why did I make this trade? After looking at other teams in my division I am decided that my best chance to compete will be in 2005 (just look at Gil's roster in Chicago and remember DJ's in my division as well). Ponson had a good year, but didn't perform all that well after his trade. Mike, you yourself have made fun of the fact that Sharky traded both him and Konerko to me in the first place. You continue to state that you think his arm is going to fall off at any moment. Nix, while a decent prospect, can be replaced. I get one of the better catchers out there and I get him for the 2005 season at what will probably be a bargain for a good defensive catcher with good offensive numbers (in a pitcher's park). With Rowand, he most likely will start in CF for the White Sox, Quiroz is one of the better catching prospects and Hendrickson is a lefty with a lot of potential playing on a team that looks better and better everyday. Like I said I'm looking more to 2005. Lilly will have another year to improve, Nady will hopefully have a better year next year, Konerko should rebound, Pierre will be back in 2005 and I will most likely keep Anderson til 2005. Add in LoDuca, maybe Hendrickson has a decent year. Sorry you don't like the trade Mike, but I just think I help myself more than I hurt myself. Then again, what do I know - I've finished last every year I've been in the league. Back to top bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 11:33 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Criticism comes with trading, Gene - especially when the board has been as dead as it has been over the past week or so! It's just baseball. Nothing personal. I completely understand trading Ponson. I just don't see any of those four guys becoming valuable players within the next year or two (or three.) Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my gut feeling (and I have quite a gut to back up that feeling.) Lo Duca's numbers are trending downward (OPS of 917, 732 and 712 over the past three years, with just a 575 OPS in the second half of last year), and he was just brutal defensively (15 errors) last year. I can see him moving to 1B eventually (where he played 22 games last year), though he'd be one of the worst offensive 1B in the game if that happened (though probably not worse than Konerko! ) At 31 years of age, it'll be quite an achievement if he's worth his $3.1m salary next year. Rowand is a fine #4 outfielder, but whether or not he plays full-time depends on whether the ChiSox re-sign Everett, or whether Jeremy Reed makes the team out of spring training, or whether Chicago signs someone else like Kenny Lofton or Mike Cameron. I think it's too early to say for sure whether Rowand will be the Opening Day center fielder. Even if he gets 500 AB's, I wouldn't expect much from him. The last time he got 500 AB's in a season (in 2000, at Double-A), he hit .258/.324/.438 with a 38/117 BB/K ratio. Hendrickson got hammered in August (5.08 ERA, 39 H and 7 HR in 34 IP) and September (7.07 ERA), and at 29 years old, he's no spring chicken. He may become a LOOGY eventually, but I wouldn't pay $2 million for a LOOGY. As I said, Quiroz is a very nice catcher to have defensively, but I'm just not convinced his offense is for real. And besides that, he'll have to compete with the great Kevin Cash for playing time, and that can't be good, right? Back to top Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 12:01 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I always tend to look around and see what I can get for someone. If I ever get an inquiry about a player I assume that others would be interested as well and maybe I can do better. The downside is that maybe you just received the best offer you are going to get, so you may have to just take it. I find that with players that are good value in a premium position (like SP, SS, C) there is always a market out there, I'll take Posada for example. If you feel you want to move him, post it on the board, you will get some good offers for him (though I really havn't gotten anything I like so far for Posada). I find that if you get a player's name out there that he is available, there are definately teams that will jump at the chance to acquire him, I also find that you will piss some teams off if they start an inquiry about a player, you talk trade, almost get something done, then decide to pull back and post it - but hey, have to get the best offer you can. Moral of the story, post the player and say he is available, you may be surpised at what is out there for him. "I would have loved to bring Ponson back to Marlboro, cough, cough - listening Tom?" P.S. But then again, Tom is probably sick of talking trade with me by now. Back to top skizm Triple-A Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 734 Location: Chicago Posted: 02 Dec 2003 12:13 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a much easier trade to digest than the Bradley deal. The 2nd best CF for a righty set up man, a 2bman .779 ops in 350 at bats, and JEFF WEAVER. Just posting that Bradley was on the block here would've gotten him a lot more in return than that. From me at least. Which I guess would lead to the response: "Hey, you have to be active to make trades. Not every owner, like in real life, will advertise whos available." To which I'd say, While I havent inquired about every single player I've been active, and my efforts have resulted in: no, no response, or no good offers. Mainly, it's demoralizing to see an OL rival get so much for so little, with seemingly no effort made to get something equitable for Bradley. Back to top Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 12:20 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeh, then Salem turns around and offers me Bradley for Zambrano, I'm telling you the guy has no morals. Back to top Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 12:24 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also feel that Salem got a great CF, but then he will point out that I got an ace for a bunch of prospects (even though those prospects are the top ranked in their respective organizations at premium positions: SS & C), so I never win when discussing abut his trades. Back to top bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:15 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Um...how did we get onto the subject of MY trades?? Back to top CyberSox Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1131 Location: San Jose, CA Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:19 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because the Board of Trade Morals can't get over it... _________________ Silicon Valley CyberSox Worst to First in '05! Back to top FireAnts Major League Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 1071 Location: McDonough, GA Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:24 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After reading all the post and trying to figure out how the conversation went from Ponson and LoDuca to Mike's trades, I realized that Sharky's post was most likely directed at me. Initially I had not really thought about trading Ponson, when Tom and I first started discussions Ponson was not in the picture. It just happend to end up that way after a few alterations to the deal. Could I have gotten more for Ponson from someone else, maybe, maybe not. Tom and I were in discussion, the deal seemed pretty good to me, no one else had really expressed any interest in Ponson anyway so I went with it. If your upset because I didn't offer Ponson to you Sharky (or anyone else) I sorry. Just the way the trade talks went. BTW - Sharky, did you get my offer I sent this morning? Back to top bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:31 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Because the Board of Trade Morals can't get over it... I guess not. Hey, but that's another thread. (Really, it is.) Let's do a little math. Judging by last year's auction/draft, I would guess that Lidge would have fetched $5 million if he were a free agent, and Ginter would have gone for around $3m. That's $8m, for the mathematically-challenged. Throw in Weaver's $1.6m penalty, and we're talking $6.4m in value altogether. Now...would Milton Bradley - a part-timer with 377 total AB's - fetch more than $6.4m on the free agent market this year? Maybe, maybe not. But I certainly don't think he'd get more than $7m, that's for sure. So...what's with all the hubbub, bubs? Back to top CyberSox Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1131 Location: San Jose, CA Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:36 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way, my whole roster is now available. With that said, I'm probably not actively interested in trading 99% of it at this time, but I don't want anyone to get their feelings hurt if I trade someone that wasn't known to the league as 'available'. _________________ Silicon Valley CyberSox Worst to First in '05! Back to top Ridgebacks Major League Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 1429 Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:42 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A joke to break the ice - What's the penalty for polygamy? Answer - 2 wives. Actually Gene and I started discussing some other players but Ponson somehow snuck into the conversation. I like the deal as I think it'll help me this year. Gene likes the deal as he thinks it'll help him next year. If you think there's a player on another team that might help you and might be available, go ask. Back to top Sphinx High-A Joined: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 141 Location: Naperville, IL Posted: 02 Dec 2003 01:43 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did I miss something or did Milton Bradley suddenly turn into Willie Mays? I admit his OPS vs LHP of 1.134 is very impressive, but it's only for 112 ABs. Plus, this is the last year of his contract. If he was signed for 2005 I would have kept him or asked for more in return. Lidge is cheap, has 85 IP and a K/9 ratio of 10.78. Ginter is also cheap and should get a lot of ABs with the Brewers next season after they trade Spivey to one of the teams that lost the Louis Castillo sweepstakes (Cubs? Mets?) Both can be signed to long term deals if they have good MLB seasons next year. Plus, I know Mike was pretty sad to see me leave the Benes division so I wanted to leave him with a nice parting gift _________________ Great Lakes Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 02:01 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gene, that was not meant about you. Was just being sarcastic towards Mike and how we go back and forth on trades. Back to top Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 02:02 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene, I relied back to you. I don't have the player you were inquiring about - I traded him already. Back to top FireAnts Major League Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 1071 Location: McDonough, GA Posted: 02 Dec 2003 02:15 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken - what e-mail address did you use to reply back? I didn't get anything? Back to top Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 02:21 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll resend it........ Back to top bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 02:29 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: gene, I relied back to you. I don't have the player you were inquiring about - I traded him already. Gene, Sharky traded Danny Graves to me. If you want him, he's available, but he's not going to come cheap. Back to top skizm Triple-A Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 734 Location: Chicago Posted: 02 Dec 2003 02:32 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- at 110% Bradley will be able to get 500 plate appearances this season, and he isn't just a lefty killer, he's got a .923 ops overrall. not bad for centerfielder. I'd put Lidge more in the $3 million category, like Steve Reed last year. It's not the end of the world, was just making "trade commentary" that I found this deal more lopsided than the one Mike was pointing out here. Not sure about Ginter's future value. He's been mediocre utility guy, but he's cheap and I hope he works out for you Scott. And that Lidge is worth 1.5 million next year. Just wish I had a chance to give you more for Bradley, which I would have had I known he was available. All I ask is that everyone run every pending trade by me first to see if I can do better. Back to top Sphinx High-A Joined: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 141 Location: Naperville, IL Posted: 02 Dec 2003 03:10 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian, I'd ask what you would have given me for Bradley but I don't exactly feel like crying right now. _________________ Great Lakes Back to top bigdaddy Site Admin Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 5142 Location: Salem, NH Posted: 02 Dec 2003 03:13 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott, the way Brian has been gushing over Bradley, I'm thinking of trading him to him myself! Back to top Shark Major League Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 1520 Location: Marlboro, NJ Posted: 02 Dec 2003 03:17 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bradley for Phillips!