2002 BDBL Season is Over Author Message BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 09:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's official. The 2002 season is over. It was fun while it lasted, but it's over. The Allentown Ridgebacks have acquired Curt Schilling from the Arizona Diamond- backs (along with Eric Gagne) in exchange for Russ Ortiz, Erubiel Durazo, Ron Belliard and Jimmy Anderson. That gives Allentown a starting rotation of Johnson, Schilling and Oswalt in the playoffs. Oh, and Wade Miller if they really need him. I'm very tempted to invoke Rule 9.3 on this one. Someone please give me a reason why I shouldn't. I'm dead serious when I say that this trade has ended the 2002 season. There's really no point in playing the rest of this one out now. As all "Star Wars" fans know, there are always two evil Sith. Never more, never less. We always knew who the master was. Today, we've finally learned who the apprentice is. Congratulations, Tom. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 03-06-02 10:24 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "By the way, I've made an official prediction. Mark this down on your calendars, because while I make this prediction every year, this is the earliest I have ever done so: the Stamford Zoots have just won their fourth consecutive BDBL championship. Thanks to all who made this possible" -- Calendar marked 12-12-01. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shark Double-A Posted 03-06-02 10:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope you are joking with the Rule 9.3 stuff. I have seen many worse trades than this one, many. To be honest, I like this trade - in terms of talent. Obviously I don't like Schilling going to Allentown because of the dominant staff this guy now has but in terms talent, I don't understand your point - unless you are upset over him GETTING Schilling you don't have an argument about what he gave up do you? Look at what Schilling has done already this year. He has pitched 50 out of about 270 innings and has been below average. Look at those HR totals. Obviously, he is a stud and will probably pitch closer to his real life stats but I think Allentown is taking a chance getting him (LOOK AT THOSE HR TOTALS!). He gave up a great talent in Ortiz (aside from the high walks) and only $3.5 and $4.5 next year - and well worth it in our league where pitching is overvalued. The guy is one of the top 10 pitchers in the league, look at his stats. RHs can't touch him. If he can get over the walks next year he could be a stud. Getting Durazo may prove to be a good part of it if he can get his 400 ABs this year (finally). I don't like Belliard at $4m next year when he dosn't even have a starting job in Mil but good for Allentown to give up some salary and to take a bargain like Ortiz, he had to swallow a little salary for next year. I think Anderson is a wash. Is a LH and may be better this year and actually the way SPs in this league are valued, is probably worth the $2m salary next year if he can pitch a solid 200+ innnings. Hey if Nomo can go for $10m and Bere for $5m then Anderson is worht $2m. P.S. Mike is POed at me for not making a harder pitch for Schilling but I have to watch my cap next year Mike!!!!! Mike, blame yourself - if you were not 24-4 and running away with my division then I would have went for Schilling. I was this close to doing it but you are just too good this year for me to catch :-) What is Allentowns cap next year anyway? He must be getting close to the limit? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 11:07 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Touche, Tony. Had I known that Allentown would be capable of adding the second- best pitcher in baseball to the league's best starting rotation, without giving up anything of value, I wouldn't have been so quick to predict. I thought only Marazita was capable of making deals like this one. To be fair, it's tough enough to make predictions in October - never mind December. What boggles my mind is that Allentown not only acquired the second-best pitcher in baseball in exchange for four players of borderline ability, but they also managed to CUT PAYROLL in the process! Ron Belliard at $4m is a huge burden on any roster, and Durazo at $2.1, Anderson at $2.1 and Ortiz at $5m are hardly bargains. Allentown acquired the best hitter in baseball while ridding themselves of Bartolo Colon's suffucating contract, and they've now done the impossible twice. It's unfathomable. And - to top it all off - they got Eric Gagne as a "THROW-IN!" Our League Counsel has talked me off the ledge in terms of enforcing Rule 9.3, but I still contend that this trade is harmful to the league. The rest of the season - and we still have EIGHT MONTHS ahead of us - is now nothing more than a formality. And if you can argue that it's not, I'd love to hear it. I need to be convinced that there is some purpose to finishing out this season and not simply packaging the BDBL trophy and shipping it out to Allentown. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shark Double-A Posted 03-06-02 11:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I changed my stance a little thinking about it more. Allentown does make out because next year they basically replace Ortiz with Schilling and even save about $3m on the cap. Good trade Allentown, now I am not going balistic like the commish over it because I have seen too many wierd things happen in DMB during a season (LOOK AT THOSE HR TOTALS!). In fairness to Arizona they do get a #1a SP next year, a could-be #3-4 LH SP, a possible very solid LH LF/1B in Durazo (could put up great numbers this year if he gets the ABs). Belliard? ummmm, he could start at 3B for Mil and if he can reach is potential could be solid. I was bashed when I traded Armas and Bradley for the #4 overall pick this year - and I got Alomar which MAY make it worth it if I can sneak into the playoffs. I got bashed for trading Rusch and Burks for the #6 overall pick - and I got Moyer which, again, may make it worth it if I can get to the playoffs. I will never hear the end of the Neven/Salmon/Fetters for Lowell/Lowe/DeJean/ Ginter trade with the Zoots. I was mocked when I traded FOR Erstad then released him with a penalty. BUT HEY - I was bashed fro trading Mussina for Vazquez 2 years ago and look what happened. I still have a value in Vazquez for one more year. I have learned to look at trades from both sides in both my DMB leagues and in my fanatasy leagues and never judge at the onset of a trade. I don't think the bashing of the trade is very fair to both parties, it is only the 5th week of the DMB season, my GOD, we are already in mid-season form. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ridgebacks Double-A Posted 03-06-02 11:26 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Holy cow, I’ve been called a lot of things in the past (hell, just today my wife called me 3 names) but “evil Sith” was never one of them. I’ll have to add that one to my book. I completely disagree that this season is a done deal. If you look at the numbers, Schilling is not that huge of an upgrade over Ortiz. The only reason I moved Russ Ortiz is that teams in the BDBL load up with platoons and Ortiz was getting smacked around by lefties. Schilling’s splits are much more even. Ortiz is much younger and has a longer, cheaper contract than Schilling. Durazo should get at least 300 at bats this year (probably more) and is a bargain. Belliard is getting screwed over in Milwaukee and I’m betting that he’ll get his 400 at bats as well. Jimmy Anderson was a throw-in because Arizona needed innings. On the other hand, I’m taking a pretty big chance on Schilling with his $10 million contract. The guy IS pushing 36 and has thrown a ton of innings the past few years. And Gagne only has 1 year left on his contract and is looking like Darren Dreifort part II. As for my cap, I only have $26.2 million (Schilling and Manny Ramirez account for $18) locked up for next year as I have a bunch of guys in their option years. Plus this is the last year of Bonds contract. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 11:30 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In response to The Shark, yes, I was seriously considering invoking Rule 9.3. Not because this trade was unfair (which it clearly was, but so were countless other trades), but because I felt it is harmful to the league. Maybe I'm over- reacting (it wouldn't be the first time), but I can see this deal causing a lot of people to give up on this season and lose interest in the BDBL for the next eight months. That's not good. Obviously, we can't tell the Ridgebacks that they can't make any more trades. But this trade was SO over-the-top, I felt it qualified for at least consider- ation of Rule 9.3. As I said, League Counsel has talked me down from that ledge, so we'll let it stand. Your defense of the players involved in this deal is...well...indefensible. Schilling is the second-best pitcher in the game. Period. The fact that he's gotten off to a bad start in his first 50 innings is hardly relevant. Paul Byrd is 3-0 for me with an ERA of 0.90 ERA. Should I trade Byrd for Schilling straight-up? Or would that be an unfair trade...for me! Ortiz was a fine pitcher last year, but his walks (over 300 in the past three years) and workload concern me. Maybe he'll be worth $5m next year. Maybe not. Durazo would be worth his $2.1m salary if only Arizona would give him 400 AB's. But I can't see that happening with Grace still signed for another year. Belliard is a fine ballplayer, but he's another guy who doesn't get the playing time he deserves. And he's certainly not worth $4.1m! And Anderson has never excited me, but it's quite possible he could be worth $2m next year. So Allentown got Curt Schilling - and Eric Gagne! - for four guys who *might* be worth their salaries next year. Not exactly a fair trade in my mind. But then, that's just one man's opinion. Maybe the "Trade Analyzer" should put this one through his machine. My only fear is that the thing would blow up and hurt someone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 11:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Schilling is not a huge upgrade over Ortiz." Tom, Bud Selig called. He wants his credibility back. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ridgebacks Double-A Posted 03-06-02 11:52 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where’s my calculator! WHERE’S MY CALCULATOR!!! Ok, here is a quick comparison: Schilling: .92 h/9, .14 hr/9, .15 bb/9, 1.14 so/9, 2.98 era Ortiz: .86 h/9, .06 hr/9, .42 bb/9, 0.77 so/9, 3.29 era Pretty obvious where the differences are. Ortiz gives up fewer hits but walks more than twice as many per 9 innings. But Schilling gives up more than twice as many homers per 9 IP, not a great thing with the Law Dogs in your division. Ortiz is young and signed for a few more seasons while Schilling only has 1 more year at $10 million. I wouldn’t have made the trade if I didn’t think it would help me but I really don’t think it’s that lopsided. Did anyone else make an offer for Schilling that they thought was better? I’d love to hear the details. Ultimately everyone had the same opportunity to get him -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Double-A Posted 03-06-02 11:56 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only thing you know is jouneverknow. Allentown already was going to make the playoffs (I think). Obviously he has increased his playoff chances, but the Ridgebacks were already going to be there in my opinion. From there, it all depends on matchups. What if Allentown faces Akron, with Pedro and Hudson and Mulder? Or vs. Kansas in Coors -- will that negate the pitchers? New York and Villanova both have very good teams and Phoenix will have a say. And who's to say those teams won't improve as the year goes on? The Eck League is not a pushover. As of the 2/24 standings, four teams had winning percentages of .667 or better and two others were over .500 with all having played 20+ games. Sure, you have to like Allentown's chances with that pitching staff. But a lock? Puh-leeeze. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 12:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was offering Helton for Schilling straight-up, but I couldn't pull the trigger because I couldn't afford to break up my offense. (Note: I made the same offer this pre-season, and would have pulled the trigger then, but Mike rejected that offer.) The Shark was offering Ichiro, but he didn't pull the trigger, either, because he's in love with Ichiro for some bizarre reason. In comparing Ortiz to Schilling, you have to keep in mind that the BOB was the best hitter's park in the game last year with the exception of Coors, and San Fran was one of the best pitcher's parks in the game. The difference between the two of them is H-U-G-E. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 12:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, I guess I was overreacting, as no one else seems to think this has changed anything about the Eck League pennant race or has affected any of our chances of winning the title. I'm actually very happy to hear that, as I thought this trade might prompt some sort of mass apathy. My apologies for getting my feathers all ruffled. Best of luck to everyone the rest of the way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fmimes Double-A Posted 03-06-02 01:09 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very late in the process I offered Palmeiro plus an unnamed player (unnamed since I wasn't sure what zona' would want in addition to Viagra Palmeiro) for Schilling. There have been rumours of Mays and Palmeiro going to an Eck league contender, but I can't comment on that at this time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-06-02 03:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First, since I never get to say it...I agree with Mike (except as to the use of Rule 9.3 as originally proposed, but, like he said, we discussed that and it is off the table as it should be)...this has drastically altered the season AND this league going forward. Nothing "wrong" with that, but it is a fact. I didn't see any Eck League (or Ozzie League) team having a chance before. Now I am certain of it. Second, I don't know if anyone is thinking about it, but have you looked at Allentown's team for NEXT year? By eliminating further deadweight (Belliard ($4M), Anderson ($2.1M) and an overpaid Ortiz ($5.0M) to go along with the already discarded Bartolo Colon ($9.5M) and Sean Casey ($6.0M)), Allentown has actually cleared cap space while acquiring Bonds and Schilling -- and he acquired 2 of the top 5 players of last season without giving away any of his top prospects (Oswalt, Miller (more established than a prospect, but still young), Wilkerson, Chen, Ensberg etc.). That is pure genius and, rather than criticize...I applaud. Well done Tom. I don't know HOW you protected the "core" but you did. Entering next season, here is what I see: Pitching: Johnson, Schilling, Oswalt, Miller -- potential to be the finest rotation in the history of this league. Hitting: Fick, Edgar Martinez, M. Ramirez, Rollins PLUS some prospect/injured/ bounce-back players -- Ensberg, Larkin, Wells, Wilkerson. Again...well done. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FireAnt High-A Posted 03-06-02 04:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (From the frozen tunder of Iowa).....Hey Mike, maybe you had better reset the poll on the web page now and see who everyone thinks will win the BDBL Champion- ship now? I know before that Phoenix had started to pull away but this trade just might change some opinions. Just a thought. On a side note, I never knew how dependent I was on my computers, the internet, and DMB (well, baseball news in general) until I had to come to Iowa where the only way I can even get on an internet connection is to go to my Dad's office. My old home is out here in the middle of no man's land. It has been driving me crazy. I wonder...do you make some sort of "patch" for people like me?? Gene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 04:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think there's any point to a new poll now. The only one who wouldn't vote for Allentown is Tom! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Predators Double-A Posted 03-06-02 04:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can predict all you want to about how you think Allentown is going to win the whole thing. I've got a division to win here! See you in the post-season Ridgebacks! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-06-02 04:37 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's a darn fine attitude Scot. Good luck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FireAnt High-A Posted 03-06-02 04:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Scot, don't get me wrong. I would love to see a tight race. I'm just glad the Eck League looks like they have a chance to claim the BDBL championship......no help to the Fire Ants I might add. Gene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZHeat Low-A Posted 03-06-02 06:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, my turn..... I really don't know where to start! At least the board has gotten active. I guess the place to begin is at the begining. When I sent the message that Curt Schilling was available, someone said "W-O-W, this is going to be fun". I expected many offers, but got only a few. For the record, I was offered Helton, but it was withdrawn. I asked about Ichiro, but no deal. Late in the game, Palmiero was offered. Along the way, there were a few other offers. Frankly, the return on Curt was less than expected. The offer that I accepted was in the best interest of my team. Please do not judge my moves based your team's quality/needs. I must make moves that best serve my team, not yours! In looking around, I see a few teams that are loaded. How did that happen? Trades, maybe? Based on Schilling's return, should I have waited? His value now was not at it's peak. I needed to get what I could to field a team that could compete. Is that not the goal? Or, is the goal to have a few strong teams that feed on the rest of us? Everyone had the opportunity to make offers. Is Bud running this show? Did I need to follow a script to insure a certain team was going to win? The season is not over and nothing is a guarantee. Nor, can the future be guaranteed. Will Curt do well from this point on? Will Curt perform (in reality)? Someone gave me several reasons to trade Curt (for Helton) early on. Even said he may have a sore arm! Would that have been a bad trade or would it have fit into the script? This league is about competition, not crystal ball gazing. So, I say, compete and quit crying! Use your managerial skills to overcomne a weakness. God knows I have to do that! When you look at the trade, do not filter it with your team's skills and needs. That is not fair. EVERYONE had a chance at Schilling! Finally, I believe that my team would have done or will do the same with or without Schilling. Hopefully, that trade has or will strengthen my team. Regardless, I will compete to the fullest possessing the knowledge that my chances are slim. That is the challenge and excitement of the game! PLAY BALL! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZHeat Low-A Posted 03-06-02 06:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS...... Hope no one gets angry after learning that I traded Reggie Sanders, also! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LawDogs High-A Posted 03-06-02 06:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KUDOS TO MIKE AND THE ARIZONA HEAT!!! THAT WAS A GREAT EXPLINATION OF YOUR TRADE (ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK ANYONE NEEDS TO EXPLAIN THEMSELVES WHEN THEY MAKE A TRADE). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 07:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trading Schilling was the right thing to do. At his age, salary and workload, there's a good chance he won't be worth $10m next season. So trading him now, while his value is high and he can fetch a ton of good talent in return, is a good idea, assuming the Heat felt as if they couldn't compete this year. But trading Schilling for the "best offer available", in the middle of March, was not the right thing to do at all. If the best offer on the table for Schilling was Angel Pena, Bobby Chouinard and a bag of chips, would the Heat have taken that offer? I hope not. Somewhere, a line has to be drawn. Somewhere, a certain amount of talent in exchange for Schilling has to be acceptable. The Heat obviously felt that the four players they received met that criteria. I disagree. We're both entitled to our opinions, and that's why this message board exists - so that we can express those opinions, especially when a player of this magnitude is traded to the league's best team. I've heard this reasoning countless times before; this explanation that Player X was announced to be on the trading block, and the team trading Player X received little response, and therefore took the best offer from those responses. But is this really the best (or only) way to trade an all-star caliber player? Instead of announcing that Player X is on the block, then sitting back and waiting for the offers to pour in, why not make some offers of your own? Why not peruse the standings and look for teams who can use someone like Player X, then look over their roster and find players who suit your needs? You'll find the return on that small investment of time is FAR better. Even if you don't have the time to make offers yourself, it wouldn't have hurt to sit on Schilling for another chapter. I was on the fence about trading Helton, and chances are I might have changed my mind a couple of weeks from now. The Shark is notorious for being wishy-washy, and probably would have changed his mind about Ichiro. Someone else might have stepped in with a better offer than both of us. You never know. Unless Schilling breaks his arm in spring training, his stock isn't likely to drop that much between now and April 30th. Last December, I offered Todd Helton for Schilling straight-up and was prepared to make that deal, because I felt I could acquire an adequate replacement for Helton in the draft. That offer was rejected, and I was told because Schilling was the only decent pitcher on the Heat and the team wouldn't be able to contend this year without him. Fair enough. Three months later, Schilling was traded for four players who may or may not be worthy of their salaries in 2003. If the Heat had pulled the trigger back in December, they would have had $2 million extra to spend in this year's draft. Instead, they're now looking at $3 million less to spend in next year's draft. Like I said, I'm encouraged to see that I'm the only one who feels this trade has drastically changed the outcome of the 2002 season. That's a great sign for the rest of this season. Who knows? Maybe Schilling will continue to suck, and Russ Ortiz will win the NL Cy Young. Stranger things have happened. But as it stands right now, my own personal opinion is that this was a bad trade. Bad for the Heat, and - most of all - bad for the BDBL. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IRISH REBEL Double-A Posted 03-06-02 08:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, at least we do not have to talk about Ryan Dempster for Chipper Jones or Todd helton for Eric Milton...... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 08:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We'll be talking about Dempster-for-Chipper for YEARS, believe me. Don't you worry! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZHeat Low-A Posted 03-06-02 09:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clearly, everyone is entitled to their opinion. That is not the issue. I did not "take" an offer for Schilling. I felt it was good for the Heat. I considered waiting, but that would have been a gamble. Plus, I am committed to placing the best possible team on the field to insure quality competition. In this case, I did what I felt was best for my team. Regardless of the situation, I will never consider myself "out of anything". I understand my record is 11-17, so what? If I don't feel I can compete with the team I have , I owe it to myself and the League to improve. So, I agree everyone has a right to express their opinion. But, I am the only one who has the right to create my team and the responsibility of living with it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 03-06-02 09:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Touche, Tony. Had I known that Allentown would be capable of adding the second- best pitcher in baseball to the league's best starting rotation, without giving up anything of value, I wouldn't have been so quick to predict. I thought only Marazita was capable of making deals like this one. To be fair, it's tough enough to make predictions in October - never mind December." I was just taking a little jab to make light of the situation. I applaud Tom on pulling off a nice trade to help his team. But please Mike, no hope and faith speeches. My stance on this trade is same as all the other controversial ones. As long as the trade isn't intentionally done to harm the league, then I have no problem with it. We certainly don't have any MLB-type conflict of interests here. In fact it seems that the biggest problem that some people have is that a very good team became awesome. This isn't exactly the best way to judge a trade IMO, if a borderline-contender had made the same trade to become a bona-fide contender, would rule 9.3 be considered? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NY Knights High-A Posted 03-06-02 09:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I completely agree with Mike that a player of Schilling's caliber should not be traded by waiting for offers to pour in from other teams. If I were trading Schilling I would have gone over EVERY roster and came up with the package of players that I thought was fair and met the goals I had for my team. Here's what I don't understand. After reading that the Heat's needs were 1b/3b and Sp I made the following players available: Jose Valentin (2002), Greg Norton (2002), Jeff Liefer ($500k option), Ramon Ortiz ($5m option), Robert Person (2002), Todd Ritchie ($3m 2003), Kevin Jarvis ($100k 2003), Kaz Ishii (100k option in 2003), and Orlando Hernandez ($1m option). Now I wasn't going to trade all these players but I certainly would have traded T.Ritchie, Jarvis, Liefer and whatever else it might take within reason. Those 3 players 2003 salaries are $5.6m. I had no idea if Mike wanted some help this year (Valentin, Brosius) or if he was completely focused on next year (Ishii) so I made a bunch of guys available and waited to hear what it would take. I'm disappointed that I never got the chance to even listen to the list of players that Schilling would cost me. I just don't get it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NY Knights High-A Posted 03-06-02 09:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now that Allentown has assured itself of the BDBL Championship I wonder what the market for 1-year rent-a-players is going to look like now. Dump 'em quick I say!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 03-06-02 09:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I completely agree with Mike that a player of Schilling's caliber should not be traded by waiting for offers to pour in from other teams. If I were trading Schilling I would have gone over EVERY roster and came up with the package of players that I thought was fair and met the goals I had for my team." Look, I'm not saying I would have made this trade, but seriously are we really suggesting that there are certain ways that a trade involving a star player "should" be accomplished. Very often players are posted on the board as available, and that I recall this method hasn't been chastized before. Mike L. joined the league to be part of our little fantasy world, where we get to pretend we're big league GMs/Owners/Managers. Part of that joy comes in making these types of decisions and implementing your own strategy for running a team. I'm sure Mike L. thought the trade was both fair and met the goals of his team, or he wouldn't have made the trade. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author Message SoCalSlyme Low-A Posted 03-06-02 09:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One of the great things about this league is the discussion it generates when someone puts a player on the trading block or a trade occurs. We are all individuals with differing opinions and our willingness to express them and accept others thoughts makes this league great. Heat are pleased with the trade as is Allentown. Now it is the responsibility of other contenders to make trades to match-up......... Press on........... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike S./Rocks Double-A Posted 03-06-02 09:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Glander Reverse Baseball Psychology works again. Everyone likes to be right, so when Mike preaches against revenue disparity and the Yanks not being the best team over the last X amount of years, it brings out our natural inclinations to argue. If you want to argue against those stances, you have to root for Yankee success. Voila! We are all Yankee fans against our better judgment. Now, the Commish has turned the table on Allentown. There is only one way for him to be wrong -- and that is if Allentown loses! So everyone will be rooting AGAINST Allentown winning, if only so WE can be right about the Schilling trade. This also deflects pressure away from the 24-4 Salem squad that is currently dominating the BDBL in 1984 Detroit Tiger-like fashion. Mike Glander should be in PR! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NY Knights High-A Posted 03-06-02 10:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Mike is truly happy with this trade then I am happy for him. I guess when a trade like this happens I can't help but wonder what I could have done different- ly. What could I have comfortably offered that would have made Mike even happier? I did the same thing when Chipper got traded. I looked at Dempster's numbers and then his contract ......and then I lost it! I had a player with very similar numbers at a fraction of the cost. That hurts. But since I had no idea Chipper was even on the market I didn't second guess myself for not pulling the trigger on a deal. However, this is different because in my mind I thought I had the players to make a legitimate run at Schilling and I was just hoping I wasn't going to have to mortgage the future to make a run this year. When I read the deal, naturally I made this comparison: Ru Ortiz ($4.5 in 2003) vs Ritchie ($4.0 in 2003) J.Anderson ($2.1 in 2003) vs Jarvis ($1.1 in 2003) Durazo ($2.1 in 2003) vs Liefer (500k in 2003) Belliard ($4m in 2003) vs hell, leaving Belliard out of the deal improves things for the Heat if you ask me. I would have hated to part with Ishii and I'm not sure if I would have parted ways with him at 100k. I just wish I had the chance to reject or not reject a deal that included him. Then at least I could say I had a shot to win this thing and just couldn't pull the trigger. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-06-02 11:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personally, I'd rather have Ortiz, Anderson and Durazo over Ritchie, Jarvis and Liefer. But again - just one man's opinion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ridgebacks Double-A Posted 03-07-02 05:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since we seem to have the green light to discuss the deal(s)... Ritchie for Ortiz isn't even close. Ritchie posted a 4.47 era in 2001. Ortiz was at 3.29. And Ortiz is younger and obviously more dominant. Durazo vs Liefer. Liefer had a good 2001 but let's face it, everyone thinks it was a fluke (even the White Sox who don't plan to start him). A good year for Liefer will be 20 homers as a platoon player. If Durazo gets a chance, he could hit .300 with 30+ homers. I wouldn't blame Mike L for passing on a bunch of spare parts for Curt Schilling. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 03-07-02 08:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Glander Reverse Baseball Psychology works again. ----------- Glander you'd better watch it, or your worst nightmare may come true. Everyone might start rooting for the Zoots -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-07-02 08:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I AM now an official underdog. I mean NO votes in the recent poll and Allentown making trades for Bonds, Manny Ramirez and Curt Schilling...it would take a miracle just to stay in this thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NY Knights High-A Posted 03-07-02 09:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I too would rather have Russ Ortiz, Durazo and J.Anderson instead of Ritchie, Jarvis and Liefer. However, throw Ishii in, leave Belliard out and take a look at the deal. Only my opinion but I think Ishii is a great gamble at 100k for a rebuilding team. Okay, now I'm done crying over spilt milk and will move on. Sorry if I came off sounding like a sore loser. Some of the frustration comes from the fact that I've been in this league for less than a year and I cannot believe some of the trades that have happened. I'm not saying that 9.3 should have been invoked but I'm still not used to these "dump" trades as I have never played in a league with salaries/contracts. I'll learn to deal with this better in the future. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ridgebacks Double-A Posted 03-07-02 10:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you’re missing the point. Everyone has their own opinion and Arizona does not see this as a dump trade. Look at it from someone else’s perspective: Russ Ortiz – young, reasonably priced, had a very good 2001. He really seemed to have turned a corner this past year and may emerge as 1 of the better righties in the NL this year. Erubiel Durazo – the only thing keeping him from 500+ at bats is an old Mark Grace. He’s taking balls in the OF and will probably be eligible for RF and maybe even LF next year. He’s cheap and has a very high ceiling. Ron Belliard – He had a very solid 2001 and, given the opportunity, could do the same in 2002. He’s still young. Jimmy Anderson – a high inning lefty on a bad team (so you know he’ll get his innings). Not everyone is that high on Ishii. Remember, I traded him to you for Chin-Feng Chen. So consider the ceilings on all the players in question and I think you’ll agree that Ortiz, Durazo, Belliard, and Anderson all have the opportunity to really help a team both this year AND next year. Every owner has a responsibility to be as competitive as possible. But I think we have to allow each owner to define their own avenues to success. If Schilling gets hurt (no whammies, no whammies) and Ortiz wins 17 games and Durazo hits 28 homers, I’ll have gotten taken, big time, and I’ll have $10 million on my payroll. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SeaCats Double-A Posted 03-07-02 10:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh brother, now we're back to the infamous dump trades talk. I'm not sure how you could not be used to seeing dump trades, they happen all the time in the big leagues. In fact, right in the middle of last year's big debate of how these "dump trades" aren't realistic, Fred McGriff was traded for two minor leaguers (one had a 6.00+ ERA in AAA, and the other I believe was batting around .200 somewhere in the minors). Furthermore, I think Mike Lueck has made it clear that his intentions were not a dump trade. He obviously has every intention of keeping his team as competitive as possible, and at least currently his intentions don't appear to be to dismantle the team to rebuild. And even if they were, isn't it really his choice? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-07-02 11:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dump trades are certainly realistic, but not nearly as prevalent in MLB as they are in the BDBL. I wouldn't use the McGriff trade as an example a "dump trade", as he's hardly a superstar on the same level as the superstars we see changing hands once per month in the BDBL. But we have seen players like Griffey, Johnson, Cone and Clemens traded over the years, and those certainly qualify. And when you look at the return received for those players - Antonio Perez, Brett Tomko, David Bell, Freddy Garcia, Marty Janzen, David Wells and Homer Bush - there's only one worthwhile player (Garcia) in the whole lot. That said, you HAVE to consider Arizona's trade of Schilling a dump trade. There's no way you trade Curt Schilling without it being a dump trade (unless they'd gotten Helton.) Ortiz hasn't pitched that much better than Schilling so far this season, and I certainly wouldn't bet that he'll out-pitch Schilling over the final five chapters. So - by definition - that's a dump trade. And that's perfectly okay. I think even Mike Leuck is calling it that. I have no problem with dump trades in general as long as they help the team that is doing the dumping. In this case, I think Arizona should have gotten more in return, but the consensus seems to be that they got plenty. Fair enough. The only part about this deal that really bothered me was that Schilling was going to the team that is (or should be) the favorite to win the championship. To me, when you add a talent like Schilling to a team that is already favored, you're left with a situation where it becomes pointless to even play out the season. Obviously, I stand alone on that island, and that's great. I'm glad that the people in this league (especially the Eck League) have that much confidence in their teams, and I'm glad this trade hasn't affected anyone's decision whether or not to give up on their quest for the playoffs. Who knows? Maybe Schilling will pitch like Mike Mussina in the playoffs, and Allentown won't even make the BDBL Championship Series. Stranger things have happened. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- novamustangs Double-A Posted 03-07-02 11:29 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, I'm just shocked that Villanova has a record similar to or possibly better than Allentown right now. Although I'm terrified of playing them, we split 2 games this chapter and I'm not gonna be antimidated or give up until I'm out of the race or eliminated from the playoffs. From my point, I'm gonna be happy just making the playoffs this year. Frankly, I probably won't make too many trades come trading deadline because I want to keep my future prospects in tact right now. I'd rather win by building my own team from the beginning each season instead of a boatload of mid-season trades, because I'll plan for the future that way. Now I'm not saying I may not make a few trades, but I'll be quite weary of compromising my future for a chance this year. Granted that may sound really stupid and I may not win because of that, but I feel like I'd have more fun playing this way, so that's the way I'll probably go about things cause having fun is the most important thing. I've had more fun this chapter than ever before, and not because I'm winning, but because I've shocked myself by winning because I wasn't really expecting to do this well so far. Watch, now that I've said this, I'll be like 10 games below 500 at the All-Star break. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-09-02 08:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gotta love those "throw-in" players... From TSN: Eric Gagne - P, Los Angeles Dodgers Mar. 8, 5:39 p.m. Gagne, battling Odalis Perez and Omar Daal for the fifth spot in the Dodgers' starting rotation, pitched three scoreless innings Friday, allowing only one hit and striking out two. Fantasy Spin: Perez still is the favorite, but Gagne has the stuff to win the job. Keep an eye on the situation, though it might take all of spring training for the competition to be settled. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZHeat Low-A Posted 03-09-02 10:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Given that info, we must talk about Durazo! He continues to have a great spring and is making his stand for 400AB this year. Sadly, spring training is like batting practice home runs. Nothing counts until April. And for us, it doesn't count until the season disk is released in December! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-10-02 12:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gagne for Durazo would have been a fair deal, no doubt about it. They both have just about the same chance of being worth their salaries next season, and they both have the same ceilings. Actually, if given the choice, I'd rather have Gagne than Durazo. A 2.8-to-1 strikeout-to-walk ratio for a 26-year-old pitcher sounds pretty good to me. So the trade basically boils down to Schilling for Ortiz, Belliard and Anderson. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZHeat Low-A Posted 03-10-02 09:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I understand you would rather have Gagne than Durazo. That's because you have Helton. I have Grace. I need a young 1st baseman. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-10-02 01:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I really don't mean to keep picking on you, Mike, but it doesn't matter whether or not Durazo is a "young" first baseman, because he's only under contract for one more year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ridgebacks Double-A Posted 03-10-02 06:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thread is like a Duracell. It just keeps going and going and going... Let this die already. Arizona and I both like the deal and that's all that matters. You know, usually when I trade a guy, in the back of my head, I kind of hope he doesn't do that well because I would end up kicking myself for being dumb and trading him. But in this case, I'm rooting for Durazo to hit about 52 homers this year. I really am.