Super Snelling Author Message BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-15-02 12:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Marazita, 1/29/02: "You have reached a new self-serving low...Snelling as a Top 25 propsect?"...This transparent attempt to plug your own prospects, contrary to every minor league prospect evaluator on the market, is shameless...EVEN FOR YOU. If it wasn't so comical (and transparent), it would be insulting to the rest of the league. Every time I think you have reached a new low, you wind up topping yourself. I think we have found our "niche" buddy...being shameless. Congrats." Jeff Spelman (TeamOne Baseball), 3/15/02: "Snelling is one of minor league baseball's top-five hitting prospects. That's right. He is in that elite class with Sean Burroughs, Hank Blalock and a handful of others...Snelling has one of the best hitting strokes in all of the minor leagues...If you want to compare Snelling to anyone, try a young Tony Gwynn." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 12:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nice try. Every person is entitled to his/her opinion. You have my opinion. Time will tell. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 01:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And not for anything, but since we are breaking out old quotes, how about this one from your BDBL 2000 Season in Review piece: "On July 25th, 2000, Paul Marazita traded two bit players and a bag of stale pretzels in exchange for the ace pitcher who would eventually win him a championship." Remember that one chief? Hey, at least you were right about the championship. Who were those "two bit players" you ask? A $100k John Halama and a relatively cheap Mike Cameron. In return, I received two chapters of John Smoltz (who had to be released thereafter because he was injured the entire year) "Two bit players and a bag of stale pretzels" One of those "bit players" ... or is he the "stale pretzel" -- its so hard to keep track -- (Halama) has not wound up becoming the "John Tudor-type" that scouts were predicting as he was pitching effectively in AAA in the PCL. Regardless he gave the old Bowling Green Spoilers at least one decent year (at $100k) of 179 IP w/ a 4.22 ERA. The other "bit player," Mike Cameron was the starting CF on the 115+ win Mariners and, are you ready for this, is now the starting CF for none other than the SALEM COWTIPPERS. How could that be you ask? Well, this "stale pretzel" has developed into one of the better CF's in baseball -- as I predicted. Always super athletic, and at the time of the trade all of 27 years old, he has moved to a difficult hitters park and put up some damn fine numbers for a CF. 2000: .267/.365/.438 w/ 24 SB's and Gold Glove caliber CF defense 2001: .267/.353/.480 w/ 34 SB's and Gold Glove caliber CF defense So you see, my dear friend, its really all about time. Maybe this time you will be right and I will eventually trade you for Snelling...doubtful, but always possible. Maybe I will be right. In the end, only time will tell. Lesson over. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-15-02 02:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow...you had to go all the way back to the year 2000 to find something I was wrong about?? I'm impressed. Yes, that John Halama sure has turned into the Hall-of-Fame pitcher you predicted he'd be. And Cameron has done a real bang-up job for both the Spoilers and 'Tippers. How many whiffs is he on pace for this season? 280? I've lost track myself. In the end, I agree that the Spoilers franchise benefitted from that trade - but only because they eventually dealt with me. They were able to convert Cameron into Brazelton and Restovich - two players who will actually help their franchise win in the future. As usual, the players you traded won't help anyone win anything. That makes you the better GM, I can't argue with that. Now, I know the purpose of your last post was to distract me by bringing up two-year-old statements I made, so let's get back to the real issue at hand. You said, "This transparent attempt to plug your own prospects, contrary to every minor league prospect evaluator on the market, is shameless." Now, does Jeff Spelman have enough credentials to be a "minor league prospect evaluator" in your eyes? How about Baseball Prospectus, who ranked Snelling even higher than I did? Or Top Prospect Alert, who ranked Snelling #5 overall? It's not only Snelling, of course. You also had a problem with Jeff Francis' ranking of #44. I've already shown two "experts" who believe that Francis deserves to be ranked somewhere around the top 50. You said Adam Johnson's ranking at #28 was ridiculous, yet Top Prospect Alert has him at #31. You said Burke at #18 was laughable. Sickels has him listed at #36. Not all that close, but certainly not a ridiculous ranking. Really, the only two prospects I ranked far ahead of anyone else were Brownlie (#14) and Kotchman (#7). As I said, I believe those rankings will be justified over the coming years. Time will tell. You called my rankings "comical," "transparent," "shameless," and "insulting" - and that was just your first of many posts! I'm man enough to admit Bowling Green ended up getting good value for Smoltz in the end. Let's see if you're man enough to admit you were wrong about my list. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 02:59 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once again, you miss the entire point. My point was "only time will tell." The diffence is time HAS passed with respect to your pathetic statement about the Bowling Green deal. Time has NOT passed with respect to your pathetic, self-serving rankings of your own players. Can you not see the difference? Should I speak slower? I will grant you that a commentator here and there seems to agree with you. That hardly means you, or them, will be correct. Come back to me in two or three years and let's see where these guys (Brownlie, Burke, Francis, Snelling etc.) are. Then you can rub my nose in a few of those, I will rub your nose in a few more of your predictions and we will provide a little light-hearted comedy for the rest of the board along the way. Finally, you still are incapable of admitting you were dead wrong about the Bowling Green deal. Cameron HAS turned out to be the player I told you he would be. Halama gave him one decent year at $100k. In exchange for that he gave up 2 chapters worth of John Smoltz. Not only did he win the deal...he took me to the cleaners on that one. Well done Mark Ross. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-15-02 03:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Honor, let the record show that League Counselor is once again trying to misdirect this jury by not addressing the issue at hand. I ask the court to direct said Counselor to limit his responses only to the issues that have been raised. Counselor Marazita's quote - for the third time - was: "This transparent attempt to plug your own prospects, contrary to every minor league prospect evaluator on the market, is shameless." The issue at hand, Your Honor, is not whether Snelling - or another other prospect - will become tomorrow's all-star. The issue is whether or not my ranking of Snelling - or any of the other prospects in my top-50 list - was in line with some of the leading experts in the business - in direct contradiction to Mr. Marazita's prior testimony. At mininum, Your Honor, I would like an admission from Mr. Marazita that my top-50 list was neither "comical", nor "transparent," nor "shameless," nor "insulting." I ask that you allow me to treat Mr. Marazita as a hostile witness, as he has demonstrated a profound inability to give this court a straight answer. P.S. - Your Honor, I ask that you please strike Mr. Marazita's last comment from the record, as Mike Cameron has hardly turned into the "all-star" Mr. Marazita claims he is. At best, Mr. Cameron is a league-average hitter with an excellent glove. No more, no less. In fact, he is to center fielders what Randy Velarde is to second basemen. As that is a fact, it is highly unusual to see Mr. Marazita rushing to his defense. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 04:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually Cameron was an all-star...but why be bound by the facts, right buddy? Further, your Top 50 list, on average is and forever will be ridiculous and counter to the views of any reasonable talent evaluator on the market. Finding a couple of instances where a source agreed with you does not make your list valid, it merely makes it LESS ludicrous. So, if you would like me to say that your list is minimally less ludicrous than originally thought, I will grant you that. And you say I am not flexible... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-15-02 04:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, and David Bell was an all-star, too. And he also played for that same 115-win team that you claimed made Cameron such a phenomenal player. Does that mean that David Bell is just as phenomenal? Would David Bell for Smoltz have been a fair deal?? I'll say it again: Mike Cameron is a LEAGUE-AVERAGE hitter. Do I really have to prove that to you? I guess you've left me no choice...so here goes...believe me, this hurts me more than it does you: MC 2001: .264/.361/.417, 778 OPS LA 2001: .269/.346/.439, 785 OPS MC 2002: .267/.346/.400, 746 OPS LA 2002: .266/.334/.435, 769 OPS If that's an all-star, then Rosie O'Donnell is a supermodel. It must really suck to be wrong so often, Counselor. As for your other absurd statement, am I now to believe that despite the fact that several reputable minor league experts agree with my rankings, you still refuse to retract your statement that these rankings were "contrary to every minor league prospect evaluator on the market???" Think about it. That doesn't even make sense. Counselor, I'm not sure I can help you anymore. In your feeble attempts to make me look foolish, you seem to have completely lost touch with reality. I'm here for you, man. Help is just around the corner. The first step is saying those three little words: "I was wrong." The truth shall set you free, my brother! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 04:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cameron was NOT a league average CF moron. He was substantially above that. Including him with corner OF's and 1b (among others) is completely unfair...but, then again, that's what you are best at. Why don't we start comparing apples to apples. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-15-02 04:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those comparisons are LEAGUE AVERAGES! They include numbers from banjo-hitting shorstops, catchers, second basemen and even pitchers!! (NOW who's the moron??) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 05:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To answer your question, you are still the moron and in addition your figures: (a) do not address the absolute dearth of quality CF's and (b) are not adjusted for park effects. As to (b), Seattle had a -11% run bias, -6% BA bias for RH and a -25% HR bias for RH batters -- without question one of the more difficult places to hit in the major leagues for righties (actually, by my calculations, the 4th toughest hitters park for RH hitters according to STATS) As to (a), here is the list of starting CF's from the "Regular CF" list in the STATS book. You do the math...I have better things to do. Torii Hunter Chris Singleton Calvin Murray Mike Cameron Andruw Jones Darin Erstad Doug Glanville Mark Kotsay Carlos Beltran Melvin Mora Gabe Kapler Jay Payton Juan Pierre Kenny Lofton Richard Hidalgo Preston Wilson Johnny Damon Bernie Williams Steve Finley Peter Bergeron Jim Edmonds Gary Mathews Ken Griffey Marquis Grissom Terrence Long Devon White Jose Cruz Carl Everett Adjusted for ballpark effects, can you honestly tell me he is not one of the 5 or 6 best hitting CF's for 2002 on that list? Then add in defense. After Andruw Jones, he is in the next tier of 2-3 guys. Listen, the proof is in the pudding. YOU yourself went out and traded for this alleged loser...and the best defense you have is "he has struck out a lot for me so far." How pathetic can you get. You know what...don't answer that last question...I already know. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STMZoots Triple-A Posted 03-15-02 05:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You also traded for David Eckstein. He of the .712 OPS last season. If you asked me the question of whether he had significant value I would not trot out hitting statistics which look at positions other than SS. Instead, being reasonable, I would compare him to his proper comparators -- SS's. I would look at his .355 OBP and say, hey, you know what, as far as SS's go, that ain't bad. I would NOT say, "compared to Jason Giambi, that OPS sucks and Eckstein is useless." This is what reasonable people do. I guess you will have to take my word on that. So, getting back to it, here was the deal. Mike Cameron for 2 more seasons at 3M and 4M PLUS John Halama at $100k in option year coming off season where he had 4.22 ERA FOR 2 chapters of John Smoltz (at $7M and virtually untradeable due to fact that no one could carry that much cap space) when Bowling Green was not in the playoff hunt. Tell me that isn't a reasonable deal if you are Bowling Green and I will tell you you are full of crap...then again, this audience already knows that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-15-02 06:33 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Counselor, one of the many things I admire about you is that you never know when to give up. You're fighting a losing battle here, yet you continue to be just as cocky and self- assured as you were at the onset. I admire that, I really do. I think you misunderstood my comparison again, so I'll clarify even further. Those numbers were from the BDBL - not the Major Leagues. So ballpark factors are already taken into consideration, especially when you figure that the Ozzie League's parks are much better pitcher parks than the American League's. Regardless, just for the sake of argument, let's give Cameron an extra ten points on his OPS for playing in Bowling Green's home park. Guess what? He's still league-average. My ballpark is neutral, so he's actually below league-average this season (so far.) You want to compare him to other center fielders in the league? Okay, no problem. Care to guess where Cameron ranked in OPS among the twelve other Ozzie League center fielders? Second? Nope. Third? Nope. Fifth? Nope. Try NINTH. EIGHT Ozzie League center fielders had better offensive seasons than Cameron last year: Kenny Lofton, Brian Giles, Richard Hidalgo, Sammy Sosa, Carl Everett/Juan Encarnacion, Marvin Benard, Preston Wilson and Johnny Damon. So in terms of CENTER FIELDERS, Cameron wasn't even close to being league-average. In terms of hitters overall, though, he was almost exactly that. Why then, you ask, did I trade for him? Because, as I told you hundreds of times before in the past when we were discussing Randy Velarde, there is value in a league-average player - especially one with an above-average glove. It's the same reason why I traded for David Eckstein. I can't have a star at every position! (Well, I did last year, but that didn't help me much, did it?) Now...is there SO MUCH value in a league-average player (or two) that I'd trade a Cy Young candidate for him? No. But that's me. I would trade someone like Smoltz for either one star player or two players with "star potential." But I wouldn't trade him for two league-average players. Again, that's just me. Looking back, was the Smoltz deal reasonable? Sure. Was it a good deal for Bowling Green? Personally, I don't think it was. But I will retract my statement where I compared Cameron and Halama to a bag of stale pretzels. Instead, I will compare them to a bag of stale nachos: not quite as tasty as a bag of stale Doritos, but much better than the healthier option of stale pretzels. And now that I have been man enough to retract my statement, it is your turn. We all anxiously await this turning point in your mental development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BDBLcommish Head Honcho Posted 03-16-02 04:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm...I guess we're never going to hear those three simple words from Mr. Marazita. Oh well, I tried. By the way, this just in from Dave Cameron of StrikeThree.com: "The Mariners have taken serious notice of Chris Snelling's spring. Lou Piniella brought Snelling up from minor league camp today to start him against the San Diego Padres, which is a complete turn from when cuts were made a few days ago. He's talked about the kids who were cut "not coming back" and struggling to find at-bats for Ruben Sierra and Edgar Martinez. Considering Snelling wasn't invited to ML spring training in the first place, the fact that he's been brought up to play in a Cactus League game (not due to a split squad shortened roster) speaks volumes. Before the game, Piniella was asked about Snelling, and commented that if it was up to him (and it's not), he'd "forcefeed Snelling and start him in AAA." He started Snelling in left field this afternoon, and through two innings, he's 2-2 with a single and an rbi triple. He's now 5-11 with 2 singles, a double, and 2 triples in Cactus League play. Last year, he was 4-11 in spring play. Its quite obvious that Snelling has opened a lot of eyes this spring. Its no longer out of the realm of possibility that the club will look to him after the all-star break if Ruben Sierra isn't producing as hoped in left field."